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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Wescrist-
I can't for the life of me think why someone would label the highest level of understanding after the Centaurs who were half horse and half human, often shown in ancient art as raping young women with enormous phalluses. This is progress?
I have the same, though lesser problem, with Fructose's use of Diakrates for the new name of God to replace Jehovah. I don't think any of us should be looking to either the pagan or Christian past for the symbols of the future. We need symbols that are global and without so much baggage.
And yes I do know my monkeys from my apes as I teach physical anthropology sometimes. I also teach comparative religion. I am definitely not trying to convert anybody to a particular religious view.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Fructose-
Thanks for taking the time to give me the Goodall references. I have ordered her latest biographical book.
The question you pose regarding evolution - robins and starlings - is an interesting one which I have often pondered but come to no fixed conclusions about.
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WBraun
climber
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Of course one can make up any name for water as it just describes water and ones thirst in the desert will never be quenched by saying the word water.
One needs the actual substance water.
On the spiritual platform the actual names of God such as Jehovah, Yahweh, Kṛṣṇa, Vasudeva are non different from him. These are transcendental sound vibrations.
So trying to rename God according to ones mental speculations show complete utter lack of true understanding leading to creating just another dogmatic sectarian religion to mislead oneself and others.
The cheaters and the cheated band together to mislead each other .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Weschrist-
You have me reading up on Greek mythology which is not a bad thing to do. I agree that Chiron would definitely be the better word to use than centaur. Quite a lot of interesting history there.
You're also right that they're only words but words are important. I know from teaching comparative religion how difficult it is to use neutral words that don't push someone's buttons. Still, western culture has already been through the use of Greek to define both pagan and Christian beliefs. I think we need a new language.
I also agree that the suppression of our animal instincts instead of their recognition and transformation, has got the West into a lot of trouble. Better than Chiron even in my books, would be the use of the word tantra as it deals specifically with humans and their transformation rather than some phantastical half human, half animal form.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Romans 8:23, we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we await for it with patience.
Romans 12:2, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Ephesians 4:1, walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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Oct 10, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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Go-B, I love you, but even I, another Christian, wishes you would do more than simply cite Scripture. Even among Christians, the Gospel is not always self-explanatory. Risk some interpretation for us. Say something about what it means to try to live out what is written.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 10, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 01:45am PT
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Go-B- "By the witness of Moses (Law), and Elijah (Prophets)..."
Thanks for that explanation! I never understood why they(Moses & Elijah)appeared with Jesus.
Now I do.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 11, 2010 - 01:58am PT
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A survey recently conducted by the Pew Research Centre indicates that atheists, agnostics, Jews and Mormons tend to have more knowledges of the core teachings, traditions, holy books, founders and beliefs of the major world religions. Most of the various brands of christianity tend to be less well informed, particularly the evangelicals.
On average, Americans correctly answer 16 of the 32 religious knowledge questions on the survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life. Atheists and agnostics average 20.9 correct answers. Jews and Mormons do about as well, averaging 20.5 and 20.3 correct answers, respectively. Protestants as a whole average 16 correct answers; Catholics as a whole, 14.7. Atheists and agnostics, Jews and Mormons perform better than other groups on the survey even after controlling for differing levels of education.
I guess if we could just educate the believers, we could have an intelligent discussion with them about their religions.
http://pewforum.org/Other-Beliefs-and-Practices/U-S-Religious-Knowledge-Survey.aspx
And here's a skill-testing poll about religions and their histories:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/opinion/10kristof.html?src=me&ref=homepage
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 02:10am PT
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Wonder!
Beautiful pictures. A glimpse into the past and the exquisite culture of India.
Wade!
Reminds me of "A Man Called Horse". Actually I was familiar with the "Ghost Dance" long before that movie made it's debut. My father gave me a bow and some arrows for my 8th birthday, and for the next 5yrs. i devoured every book and article on the Native Americans.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 02:18am PT
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MH, that may be true but the Evangelicals have the greater knowledge of the Old and New Testament(Bible)than any of the groups. Of course that is what is important to them, not the other "various world religions".
We discussed this at length following a similar post by Mr. Donini a while back.
edit: "On questions about Christianity - including a battery of questions about the Bible - Mormons(7.9% right out of 12)and White Evangelical Protestants(7.3% out of 12)show the highest knowledge."
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:10am PT
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Jennie, I was typing my edit at the same time as you were typing your post. I had to re-read the article to get the specifics.
BTW, if you go back to the discussion we had about a week or two ago, you will see that I gave everyone, including Mormons their due respect in regards to this little poll. And likewise on another thread that weschrist started in response to this same article, making the same boisterous claims as MH and Donini...go figure.
I find it rather humorous that three of the more vociferous atheist amongst us(MH/Donini/Weschrist)find it necessary to make a claim of being more knowledgeable in religions of the world somehow puts them in a more superior position in regards to Christians ability to discuss our religion.
Mighty Hiker- "I guess if we could just educate the believers, we could have an intelligent discussion with them about their religions."
And then he leaves a link to the article from which I post here:
"On questions about Christianity - including a battery of questions about the Bible - Mormons and whit Evangelical Protestants show the highest knowledge."
So evidently MH, us "believers" in Jesus don't need to be "educated" by the atheist and agnostics...so fire away!
edit: Of course there are believers other than the Christian "believers" I'll let them speak for themselves.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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Then how is it you didn't know why Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the Transfiguration? It seems to me that anyone thinking about its significance would have figured out that they represented the highest of the two traditions of the Old Testament. To use Buddhist and Hindu terminology, they were the lineage gurus of Jesus.
The Transfiguration by the way, was a dramatic demonstration of what individuals go through at certain point in the mystical life. It corresponds to what the Hindus and Buddhists from India call seeing the Thousand Petaled Lotus, the Zen people call Satori, the Orthodox Christians, the Uncreated Light, the Pentacostals the Baptism of Fire etc.
The world's Scriptures were originally based on internal experiences of people all over this planet and are better understood from that experience IMHO than as legalistic documents. All too often I fear, people get so involved with memorizing chapter and verse that they forget the obvious, like how to make observations and connections on one's own.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:36am PT
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Jan- Then how is it why you didn't know why Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus at the transfiguration?"
It wasn't that i didn't know why, I had come to a different conclusion which i will get to in a moment.
I have never made a big effort to memorize verses, but it is a good practice in regards to being prepared to use examples in scripture to support your beliefs. I have become acquainted with many scripture verses over the years from studying the Bible and therefore have many memorized.
In regards to Moses an Elijah, of course I new Moses was a representative of the Law, the Ten Commandments. And Elijah is my favorite Prophet, and 1 Kings 18 is one of my favorite chapters in the OT.
I always looked at it from the perspective that God was making it clear to Peter, James and John that Jesus was higher then Elijah and Moses.
Peter, James and John wanted to make three Tabernacles for each of them(Jesus, Elijah, and Moses)therefor they considered them equal. But God took away Moses and Elijah, and left Jesus suspended in glory and then stated "This is My only begotten Son, in whom I am well pleased." At which Peter, James and John fell down and worshiped Him. That is the reason that I felt God had Moses and Elijah present. To make it clear to P, J & J that Jesus was the Son of God, and therefor equal to God. I haven't spent any time doing an in depth study of the Transfiguration.
edit: So, I believe that Jesus was giving Peter, James and John a view of the Kingdom. And that the Old Testament saints represented by Moses(Law)and Elijah(Prophets) are one church with the New Covenant saints(believers)who they(P, J & J)represented. They, together, would be one united church with Jesus Christ at it's head.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:38am PT
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Thanks for predicating farther on your scriptural knowledge post,TripL7. I know committed Evangelicals are sincere about bible study.
I’d suggest that Mighty Hiker’s statement was made as tongue-in-cheek humor rather than an expression of contempt. Though serious about his beliefs, Anders likes provoking smiles more than engendering altercations.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 03:54am PT
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Jennie, yes i agree with you about Anders. If I were an agnostic or atheist, I would have found it difficult to not do likewise. Such opportunities are hard to pass up.
But it gets kind of old on this side of the fence, especially after viewing similar comments on such shows as Keith Olbermann on MSNBC, and Bill Maher, etc. Get's old, and increasingly misrepresented.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Oct 11, 2010 - 06:39am PT
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Jan- "It seems to me that anyone thinking about it's significance would have figured out they represented the highest of the two traditions of the Old Testament."
Where did i state that I didn't understand who Elijah and Moses represent? Moses has represented the Law throughout the Old & New Testament. And Elijah was one of the prophets. That they are representative of the Law and the prophets wasn't what I was unclear of. That is obvious.
And I am fully aware that Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets(the Messiah)with his sacrificial death. I can also see how Peter wanted to build three Tab. by giving equal weight to to the three. Peter would later call Jesus "the chief cornerstone".
go-B's post simply got me tying some things together, some things i haven't given a lot of thought to in a long time.
Jan- "The Pentecostals Baptism of Fire."
This has nothing to do with the Transfiguration, it is referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit similar to what took place at Pentecost in the first chapters of Acts. That is where Pentecostal's got there name. The Holy Spirit fell down on men like tongues of fire.
I hope this, and your further study and meditation on the Word/Bible will lead you to new understanding, meaning and relationship with Jesus Christ.
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