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scarface
Trad climber
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High Fruity,
Your challenge is contained in this part of your set-up.
Robins accept the mechanistic origin and evolution of life and living things (as revealed by science) and the Starlings do not.
Firstly, it is black or white. This mode of thought has been going the way of the dinosaur for some time. In fact, many humans, scientist, religious types, even some atheists have let go of it. Even from way back. There is a bigger tradition (thousands of years) than you think.
Secondly, science doesn't come down on a mechanistic view of life as you suggest. You're making this up. A lot of the industrial revolution and technology bows to a mechanistic view, but this is changing.
Quit trying to slip stuff into the white space.
You're a language narcissist. May I suggest you dial 1-800-help-me.
SF
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WBraun
climber
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If the "soul" leaves the body at death, how can this be demonstrated or disproven?"
Classic case of over educated people.
When the soul leaves the body it's dead, so simple.
But obviously you can't see that as your head is filled to the brim with "Science".
When you turn off the engine and get out of the car it's dead, until a living entity turns it back on (crude example).
And Fruitcake: Good thing you have that little chihuahua Pate to come to your defense, you'll need him.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Call Larry the Cable Guy when you need a heart bypass surgery.
I mean really, what do those elite "science" people know about cardiology?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sigh...
Wern- I guess in your book ignorance is a good thing, education is bad. That's a sure-fire path to progress!
So if you believe the soul exists, do you believe that people can have out of body experiences? If so, are they dead when they're out taking a "spin around the block" so to say? Or did you mean to say, as your grammar implies, that the soul is dead once it leaves the body?...
If the "soul" leaves the body at death The point of using "if" in that sentence was more to say, "given that the soul exists..." I'm sure even you could've figured that out with a little extra thought.
Since you don't have any clue what so ever of the soul, it's constitutional position, and how it works Still waiting for you to impress us with your depth of knowledge on the subject. If you're going to hold forth on being such an expert, then don't be spineless. Let's hear it, Loud & Proud!
Dood- I'm sure w can speak for himself. But since you've weighed in, your comment doesn't define anything about the essential nature of the "soul".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Education, knowledge, science. Who cares?
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scarface
Trad climber
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Norton, I thought you blew a fuse..
Werner didn't mock science. He mocked the adolescent folks on this thread who lay claim to all things science.
SF
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WBraun
climber
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Yes scarface got it right.
skeptic I'm not here to impress anyone the least which be you.
I already gave my answer although it can be expounded infinitely from the simple beginning I gave up thread.
Just as one can explain the nature of the ocean by taking just one drop out of it.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Werner- when you want to stop sniping & spewing your little hate turds to actually contribute something well-reasoned and meaningful to the topic at hand, I'm all ears. Until then you're no better than those you're accusing of being obtuse & jejune. (Yeah, I know those are big words, but they should be no problem for a person of your intellect.)
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WBraun
climber
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Again
I already gave my answer up thread but you seem to not be able to read nor understand.
It's too simple for a complex overloaded mind like yours.
Therefore you only see what you project and you take offense at what you see in the mirror of your own self.
It's never going to come the way YOU want it ......
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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The human soul is the organ of our self-consciousness
Ok! now we're getting somewhere! Thanks for that excellent start. I'll give it some consideration and see if I've got more questions perhaps you can help with.
See Werner- it's not that hard. Much more descriptive and reasoned than anything I can remember reading from you on any subject you've chimed in on. Ever. Sorry you have this chip on your shoulder about educated discourse. It's something you really need to work on; it (ignorance) casts a bad light on you.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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I think it's time for another monkey pic
So would this guy have a soul or not?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Interesting question.
I would say yes.
http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/f/animalsinheaven.htm
The Good Book says that a Sparrow doesn't fall without GOD being there. They must have a spirit then. Why would GOD then care if they didn't. Why would he bother to be there at the end if it didn't matter, if that was their end to be no more. It wouldn't make sense. I would imagine he is there to accept their spirit coming back to him.
I would like to think they will all be there. It will be an overwhelming Zoo. And loved pets could indeed be there. My opinion. Bear 46, though will probably be locked up. Sad.
I do not think they need salvation like man does. They are not at the same creation level as man. The animals were made, and Man has dominion over them. We aren't doing a good job of taking care of them are we? We can do better.
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Wonder
climber
WA
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But Klimmer, I have seen animals show guilt like dogs and cats and even monkeys act out when they have been caught doing something their masters didnt want them to do.
Does not this soul want redemption? We have dominion over slaves too.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Ephesians 4:32, Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Weschrist-
You photo above is of chimpanzees not monkeys.
Meanwhile, can you explain to me what centaur consciousness is in your diagram above?
Fructose-
What is your souce for Goodall's interpretation of human evolutionary consciousness? I've never read that about her before.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
I've lost track...
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Dalai Lama:
We can think of honesty and dishonesty in terms of the relationship between appearance and reality. Sometimes these synchronize, often they do not; but when they do, that is honesty, as I understand it. So we are honest when our actions are what they seem to be. When we pretend to be one thing but in reality we are something else, suspicion develops in others, causing fear.
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WBraun
climber
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It's obvious to you too even though you can't understand it but you experience it yourself every single breath.
Animals never go against their own true nature so there's no real problem.
Humans act as animals or thru their real nature act as humans according to the consciousness they've developed.
Humans act worst than any animal at times when they under the severe spell of the illusionary energy.
You've witnessed this also .....
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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I believe that reality is rational.
I believe that there’s a rational reason why we observe that the large majority of people believe in God. I don’t believe that that rational reason is wrong – I believe that it’s just right.
What is the alternative to that belief? Does people’s belief in God create (or is it evidence of) an irrational reality?
We have access to a lot of information. We can’t store every bit of information in our limited memories. As we refine our scientific theories, we encode more and more information into a single theory. When we create a new theory that includes all of the valuable information from the old theory, along with some new valuable information, we no longer need to store that information - we can use the space for something else. Why do we do that? It’s good for us, isn’t it?
Who created our latest scientific theory? We did, a lot of us working together, with our observations and analysis of those observations. We did it in steps, one theory building on the previous, conserving the salient information from the previous. We didn’t do it individually, just one of us with our individual powers of perception and reasoning.
Our beliefs are not solely a result of our own individual thought processes in our individual brain. There’s more to us than that.
We’re influenced by the genetic information that is given to us at birth, and the environmental information that we receive through our perceptions, including other people influencing us. Where does that information come from?
Most people still believe in God. Is that irrational?
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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Thanks HFCS. To me, that seems to be what we're stuck with. Do we chose to believe that we live in a miserable reality or a good one?
We each have our own uniquely incomplete set of information about reality. Sometimes we use that set of information to measure others’ beliefs and behaviors, and conclude that they’re wrong – they shouldn’t believe and behave as they do.
But reality uses it’s complete set of information, and concludes that they’re right – they should believe and behave as they do. And reality is always right about it – they do believe and behave as they do!
So whose information should we each believe?
Most people believe in God.
Most people also believe in science – that we can use past observations of reality to predict future behaviors. And we believe that we have free will to choose whatever belief or behavior we wish, that we’re individually responsible for those choices, and that those choices change (or create) reality. Is that combination of beliefs irrational? How can we use science to predict future reality using past observations if we're free to change that reality with our choices?
I believe that our perception of contradictions like that is just a reflection of our incomplete information – that actually there are no contradictions. I think that can be interpreted as both a belief in science and a belief in God.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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