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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 18, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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LEB wrote:
Even money, once the mosque is built, there will be some sort of tribute - either direct or veiled - to the "brave and devoted" men who gave up their lives (i.e. 9/11) serving Allah. The only is question in my mind is whether or not it will be veiled.
So, you must REALLY be incensed by these things that have ACTUALLY HAPPENED, regarding the FDNY Catholic priest:
Judge's helmet was presented to Pope John Paul II. France awarded him the Légion d'honneur. The U.S. Congress nominated him for a Presidential Medal of Freedom. In 2002, the City of New York renamed a portion of West 31st Street "Father Mychal F. Judge Street" [23], and christened a commuter boat "The Father Mychal Judge Ferry".[24]
A campaign has been started in Carlstadt, New Jersey to have a statue of Judge erected in its Memorial Park.[25] Alvernia University, a private independent college in the Franciscan tradition in Reading, Pennsylvania, named a new residence hall in honor of Judge.[26]
In 2002, the U.S. Congress passed The Father Mychal Judge Police and Fire Chaplains Public Safety Officers Benefit Act into law.[27] This was the first time the federal government ever extended equal benefits for same-sex couples, allowing the domestic partners of public safety officers killed in the line of duty to collect their federal death benefit.
In 2006 a film, The Saint of 9/11, directed by Glenn Holsten and narrated by Sir Ian McKellen, was released, celebrating Father Judge's life. The film includes testimonies of work colleagues and people who met him at different stages of his life.[28]
The Father Mychal Judge Walk of Remembrance takes place every year in New York around the 9/11 anniversary. It begins with a Mass at St. Francis Church on West 31st Street, then proceeds to the site of Ground Zero, retracing Judge's final journey and praying along the way.[29] Every September 11, there is also a Mass in memory of Mychal Judge in Boston, attended by many who lost family members on 9/11.[30]
The thread here is that there is great healing that is occuring, by having identified and honored this priest. It sounds awfully that you would deny such, to an equivalent moslem.
You think it is fine for the PD to have a wall with their lost.
You think it is fine for the FDNY to have such a wall.
You probably think it would be fine for a bar to have a wall with patrons lost.
But not muslims.
Because they are all the same. All terrorists. All enemies. All non-humans.
That's just really sad that you think that way.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Aug 18, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
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This thread is STILL going on?
Do you anti-mosque people realize that if the right-wing talk shows started saying so, you would soon all be on here spouting about how the US Constitution is a socialist conspiracy?
You are just so DUMB.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Aug 18, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
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Just wanted to post these from that Daryl Lang blog page. I do remember this hallowed ground last time I visited NYC.
Should a place of religious study be so close to a place like this?
Come to think of it, maybe having a "Mosque" or other religious building next to a strip joint, bar and bookie isn't such a good idea?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 06:30pm PT
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Do you anti-mosque people realize that if the right-wing talk shows started saying so, you would soon all be on here spouting about how the US Constitution is a socialist conspiracy?
You are just so DUMB.
Is Obama dumb too? He took the same stance as most of us.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 18, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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In what ways do you agree with Obama's position on the mosque Bluering? Really curious because I missed where you two agree. Thanks in advance.
Also, (and not directed to you Bluey - just talking out loud) given there is a mosque four blocks from ground zero, at least I know understand where some folks draw the line: two blocks is too close; four blocks is okay.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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It's really mind blowing how much influence the media has over society when something, such as a Muslim Cultural Center, not a mosque, is to be built blocks away from Ground Zero, can rile everyone up against each other.
I will not be surprised if this becomes one of the central issues or smear issues in the next elections.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
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Hawkeye, the reason I think your post is stupid is that nobody is threatening the existing (and great) religious freedoms we have in this country. What you may be missing is that every right we have is constrained to the point that we're not infringing on OTHER'S rights.
You, for instance, have a right to free speach, but you cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater, unless of course, there is a fire. I think you have the right to spit on the ground in this country, but not if it hits someone in the face along the way. This a-hole Imam has the right to build his mosque/cultural center, but not in a way that violates city approval practices...which ALSO have the right to review building proposals for their appropriateness and decency.
You would have a hard time arguing the case that Muslims' freedom to worship could not adequately be maintained if the mosque site were SEVERAL blocks away instead of two short blocks from Ground Zero.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
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Some blocks in lower manhattan are short, and others quite long. Are we talking short blocks or long blocks?
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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given there is a mosque four blocks from ground zero, at least I know understand where some folks draw the line: two blocks is too close; four blocks is okay.
Hi Crimpergirl, that is interesting. Was the 4-block-away Mosque built after 9/11/01? I think that is the issue.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
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It is my understanding the four-block-away-Mosque has been there since 1970.
But I could be mistaken - I'll see if I can verify.
edit:
Still hunting for an interesting source I saw earlier about the Mosque that is near. Until I find it, in response to another question:
At least according to one source the proposed center is just over two blocks from the northern edge of the sprawling, 16-acre World Trade Center site. Its location is roughly half a dozen normal Lower Manhattan blocks from the site of the North Tower, the nearest of the two destroyed in the attacks.
And, the proposed center's location is already used by the cleric for worship, drawing a spillover from the imam's former main place for prayers, the al-Farah mosque. That mosque, at 245 West Broadway, is about a dozen blocks north of the World Trade Center grounds.
Still hunting (and working).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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Crimpie, I agree with their right to build the mosque, just not the choice of locations.
“Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country,” Obama said at the dinner. “That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan in accordance with local laws and ordinances.”
The next day he said he didn't necessarily endorse the project.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
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Thanks Blue.
Here is the text I saw earlier. It is from the WaPo. The links didn't copy over. The original article can be found herehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/18/AR2010081804759.html?sid=ST2010081805099:
1. Where is it?
The project is slated for two adjacent buildings at 45-51 Park Place, between West Broadway and Church Street, two blocks north of Ground Zero in Lower Manhattan. Find a map of the location here.
2. What was previously in the buildings?
One of the buildings, at 45-47 Park Place, used to house a Burlington Coat Factory, which closed after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. (The top of the building was damaged by the landing gear from one of the planes used in the attacks.) The building is five stories tall and was built in 1857-58 in the Italian Renaissance palazzo style, according to the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission.
The other building, 49-51 Park Place, is a former substation owned by Con Edison. The building is in the process of being sold to the project's developer, Sharif el-Gamal, who now rents it on a long-term lease. The sale may have to be approved by the state Public Service Commission. Both Con Edison and the Public Service Commission are reviewing their records on the matter, and no timeline is set. Read more about the ownership issue here.
Although both buildings are mostly vacant, Muslim prayer services have been taking place in the 49-51 Park Place building since Gamal began leasing the property in 2009.
3. Is it actually a mosque, or is it a cultural center?
The plan is for a cultural center that would contain a mosque.
The project's organizers have said that the center would be modeled on Manhattan's 92nd Street Y, a community center open to all New Yorkers. The center would house meeting rooms, a fitness center, a swimming pool, a basketball court, a restaurant and culinary school, a library, a 500-seat auditorium, a mosque and a Sept. 11 memorial and reflection space. The organizers have estimated that the mosque could attract as many as 2,000 worshipers on Fridays. More on what would be in the complex here.
4. What would the center be called?
The founders originally decided to name the project Cordoba House, after the medieval Spanish town where Muslims, Jews and Christians joined together in a lively interfaith community. In response to criticism that the name instead recalled an era of Islamic hegemony, the planners changed the name to "Park51," after the address of one of the buildings.
5. What would the construction cost? How many jobs would the center create?
The cost is estimated at $100 million. By some estimates, the center would create as many as 150 full-time and 500 part-time jobs.
6. Who is behind the project?
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is behind project. According to his official bio, Rauf was born in Kuwait and educated in England, Egypt and Malaysia. As a teenager, he immigrated to the United States from Egypt with his father, an Egyptian imam.
Rauf received his bachelor's degree in physics from Columbia University and has a master's degree in plasma physics from Stevens Institute of Technology in New Jersey.
From 1983 until 2009, Rauf was the Friday prayer leader at Masjid al Farah, a Sufi mosque 12 blocks from Ground Zero and 10 blocks from the proposed center's site. The mosque, which moved to West Broadway in 1985 and still holds services, is in a small two-story building between two bars. Since 2009, Rauf has been leading prayer services at the vacant Burlington Coat Factory on Park Place.
Rauf has written several books, including "Islam: A Search for Meaning" and "What's Right With Islam: A New Vision for Muslims and the West." In 1997, he and his wife founded the American Society for Muslim Advancement, which is billed in Rauf's bio as "the first Muslim organization committed to bringing American Muslims and non-Muslims together through programs in academia, policy, current affairs, and culture."
Rauf has been subject to criticism for statements he made in a "60 Minutes" interview after the Sept. 11 attacks. "United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened," he said, according to the Boston Globe. In a recent radio interview, he also declined to say whether he believed Hamas was a terrorist group.
Daisy Khan: Rauf's wife. As a teenager, she immigrated to Long Island from Kashmir, India. She married Faisal in 1997. She worked for 25 years as an interior architect, according to her official bio.
In addition to serving as executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, Khan also sits on the advisory panel of the 9/11 memorial and museum, according to a report in the New York Times.
Sharif el-Gamal: The chairman and CEO of SoHo Properties and the main real estate developer behind the project. He was born in New York to a Polish mother and Egyptian father, according to a report in Newsweek. Gamal is a member of Rauf's Manhattan congregation and was also married by Rauf.
Gamal agreed to join the project in 2006, and in 2009, he bought the Park Place property; shortly thereafter, Rauf began holding services there.
Cordoba Initiative: A nonprofit organization founded by Rauf in 2004 to "cultivate multi-cultural and multi-faith understanding across minds and borders." Find the group's Web site here.
7. Why did they decide to build the complex there?
In an interview with Newsweek, Khan said that she, Rauf and Gamal settled on the site because it was large, had the right zoning and also due to its symbolism. "We want to provide a counter momentum against extremism," she said. "We want peace, and we want it where it matters most. This is where it matters most."
8. How big would the complex be?
The developer was not available for an interview. But according to published reports, the project would be 13 to 15 stories high; no architect has been selected -- the planners instead intend to hold a "world-class design competition."
9. Are there any mosques already near Ground Zero (and, if so, how near)?
There are at least two other mosques in the neighborhood. The Masjid al Farah, where Rauf served as prayer leader until 2009, sits 12 blocks from Ground Zero. The Masjid Manhattan, which was founded in 1970, is four blocks from Ground Zero, on Warren Street.
10. What is the history of the project?
The following timeline was compiled from news reports in the New York Times, New York Post, New York Daily News, Newsweek and other outlets.
 1983: Feisal begins leading services at the Masjid al Farah in TriBeCa.
1999: Feisal tries to purchase a former YMCA on 23rd Street with the purpose of creating a "Muslim Y." The project fails because of financing problems.
2005: Daisy Khan meets with Joy Levitt, executive director of the Jewish Community Center on Manhattan's Upper West Side, for advice on how to build a Muslim community center in Lower Manhattan.
Around 2006: Gamal, the developer, agrees to join the effort.
July 2009: For $4.85 million, a group of companies owned by Gamal buys the Park Place property, where Feisal began to hold services.
September 2009: At a Ramadan fast-breaking at Gracie Mansion, organizers talk with New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg (I) about the project.
February 2010: Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer's staff suggests that the organizers voluntarily present their idea to Community Board 1, an advisory body that represents the neighborhood including Ground Zero.
May 5: Community Board 1 holds a meeting; it's the first public presentation of the project. The board's 12-member financial district committee unanimously endorses the project at the meeting.
May 6: Public outcry over the project begins.
May 18: Organizers of the project talk with supporters on a conference call and hire a crisis public relations firm.
May 25: Community Board 1 meets again. After a heated four hours of discussion, the board gives its approval to the project in a 29 to 1 vote, with 10 abstentions. The vote is an advisory one, however, with no power to affect the project's development.
Aug. 3: The New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission decides that one of the buildings on Park Place does not merit preservation, clearing the way for the organizers to apply for building permits. That same day, Bloomberg gives an impassioned speech on the project's construction.
Aug. 5: The American Center for Law and Justice, a conservative organization founded by Pat Robertson, announces that it is suing the Landmarks Preservation Commission, arguing that the building merits protection as a historic landmark.
Aug. 13-14: President Obama makes remarks on the project.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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Bluering, what about the Greek Orthodox Church? Should it be rebuilt? After all, that church harbors terrorists, too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
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Crimpie, I'm curious how you'd interpret the story about the Greek Orthodox Church at the link I previous page.
It basically comes down to, who do you trust more? A priest and former mayor, or an exec from the Port Authority (prolly acting on Bloomberg's direction).
After reading the story, I tend to believe the priests, the mayor and the Congressman writing the letter to Obama.
Gary, it should be rebuilt. Your arguement is ridiculous BTW. Think about it.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
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Gary, it should be rebuilt. Your arguement is ridiculous BTW. Think about it.
bluering, please explain to me how it is more ridiculous than your argument? Ater all, many Americans have been killed by Greek Orthodox terrorists.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
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Regarding the church... there isn't a lot of information out there about this topic which is too bad. It does look like the church is trying to capitalize on the Mosque media to get its story out there so perhaps we'll hear more about it soon.
From the article you presented Mr. Blue, it seems clear that the church is welcome to rebuild on their own. This does not appear to be in dispute in your link. What is in dispute on that link is the status of the deal to use public money to do it. One side says the deal is now off the table because the church wanted 20 mill more. Another side says they are still waiting (a year?) for the attorneys to call and didn't know the deal was off the table.
Given that these negotiations involve humans, I can't pick which side I believe more. Priests can and have lied. Bureaucrats can and have lied. I think I lean toward option three: they are all being honest and there was some communication breakdown. Or they are all fudging the truth a little to look like good guys. Humans will do that sort of thing.
As to why the permits were denied - more information is needed. Building permits are denied every single day in every city for a variety of reasons. I find it surprising that the church would have *no* idea why the permit was denied. At least when I used to go and pull building permits, it was very clear why one was being denied. (That however is the experience of one person in one city at one time and doesn't represent the universe of permit pulling). It's hard to say without additional information - hopefully someone will publish it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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bluering, please explain to me how it is more ridiculous than your argument? Ater all, many Americans have been killed by Greek Orthodox terrorists?
Did they build Greek Orthodox Churches on those locations?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 18, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
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Thanks for weighing in, Crimpie, but the problem I have is that there was a Church there before and it should be replaced. I think that's the priest's point also.
But there needs to be more info on who's to blame for this. I agree.
This is why Fox News should be commended for bringing this story to light (contrary to Riley's disdain for FN). Nobody would have known this was going on for 8 years without this story!!!!!!!
It's not the messanger...it's the message. Rock on Crimpie!
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