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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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skeptic- "I have no time to waste on such futile endeavors."
Why didn't you cut/paste the whole quote?
I posted: "I have no time to waste on such futile endeavors(you) goodbye."
I wasn't saying goodbye to the thread, I was saying it to you. And then you said "Ah, you hurt my fillings." And continue to persist in twisting the dialogue/discussion.
Obviously I am very threatening to your atheist beliefs, good. As is Go-B...GOOD!
I like Go-B's tactics. Simply sharing Gods Word and Wisdom. I think I will do likewise. It is meant to stir up peoples hearts and souls/spirits.
"Maybe we should let him(JDF)and this thread rest."
The key word here is "WE"...
I ignored the thread for over a month, came back to read a few of Go-B's quotes, couldn't help but respond to Dr.F's question about why does God send people to hell. He came up with that on his own initiative, I felt compelled to respond. And like I told him, God created heaven for Him and all of His children created in His image(mankind).
It is truly sad that many reject Him, and His promise of eternal life. And choose eternal spiritual death(hell)instead. Jesus said that hell(the lake of fire/outer darkness)was created for the devil and his angels, not mankind. There are only two places to go, if you reject Him, then it is your choice, certainly not His.
JDF asked "Why do so many people believe in God(Serious Question)."
I believe JDF was "Serious"...that is why he put it(Serious Question)in parenthesis!
I continue to take JDF's question, and my belief in God "Seriously"
Edit:
Dr.F- "God is sure mad at us atheist. What will He do send us to hell with the...."
that is why I gave the answer i did.
And then Skeptimistic comes on and accuses me of trying to force my beliefs on "him". Hardly...typical atheistic tactic of putting blame/guilt on anyone who doesn't adhere to their "beliefs".
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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Weschrist - maybe we misunderstand each other.
I'm not saying that the important information in people's belief in God is that the earth is 6000 years old. My sense is that the information is that we are each a part of a larger self. That larger self is helping itself hold onto that information by maintaining many people's belief in God, even in the face of many of the disadvantages of them maintaining associated beliefs. I think that's what the OP was asking about.
We can help our larger self by each understanding and valuing that information. When we do that, we can free others to stop defending it with the federation of disadvantageous associated beliefs, and they can help us create a better us.
It's not them - it's us. We're all in it together.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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It is meant to stir up peoples hearts and souls/spirits.
You might want to rethink that. I know it has the exact opposite effect on most people I talk to, and that includes my devout christian friends.
God created heaven for Him and all of His children
So who created hell? "God, as a punishment for satan and his like" you say? But who created satan? Oh yeah, god. So why doesn't god just get rid of satan? Isn't god all powerful? Doesn't "he" love "his" children? Would you let a child-raping meth addict live in your house while you just turn a blind eye to his misdeeds? Certainly you wouldn't, especially not for thousands of years. If god can't just off satan, then it follows he's not all-powerful then. So if he's not all powerful, then who created the universe? Isn't that the god we should be worshiping? Sounds like your version of god is either mean-spirited or pretty wimpy.
As someone who claims to have a knowledge of scientific principles (I assume, since you are an O.T.), you are likely aware of Occam's Razor. Your system of god/jesus/resurrection/salvation is pretty complex and requires a lot of ifs ands and buts. The elegantly simple (and therefore most likely) explanation is that the whole thing is just nature doing its thing- no "god" needed.
Your turn... (how's that hook feeling? I'm quite enjoying mine!)
reply to above edit:
trying to force my beliefs on "him"
Not quite- I object to your (and by "your" I mean the fundamental conservative movement) trying to define the laws of this country in a very narrow and xtian-centered way. My basic point is that this is a country founded on freedom of religion (which includes non-religion) and that just because you or I believe one particular view doesn't make it more right than our neighbors' for society at large. The basic objections to abortion, euthanasia, etc always boil down to how one defines morality. For each of us that's different. You choose to live by the bible, I choose not to. You are free to not have an abortion or to not choose euthanasia. By making laws that limit those choices based on your views, you have now "inflicted" your religious tenets on me. And that's unamerican.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skept- "You might want to rethink that. I know it has the exact opposite effect on most people I talk to, and that includes my devout christian friends."
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper then any two edged sword piercing even two the division of soul and spirit, of bone and morrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Bone and marrow is an analogy for soul and spirit. Bone being the outer hard part = soul(self defined/who I am/personality, etc.) Marrow being the soft, life giving inner part = spirit(that which was given to relate to God). It gets you to think about what motives and attitudes you are acting upon. Cuts deep into the soul to the spirit of man. Convicts men of wrong attitudes motives.
The word/scripture, speaks to that part of man(spirit)and if he is a Christian shows him the right way to go in life(path). This is sometimes creates conflict with the soul of man, that soulful aspect that wants to please the man's lusts, which may not be have others, or God, or the mans own long term consequences of such actions taken into consideration.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skept- "So why doesn't God get rid of satan.?"
God could have, still can, and will "get rid of Satan" when the time comes; After the Melliniam when He casts him into the "Lake of Fire".
He didn't get rid of him when he rebelled and 1/3(one third)of the angels followed him(Satan)because the remaining angels would have stayed/continued to stay and obey Him because of fear, not out of love!
That is integral in God's plan, that love not fear is the motivator behind our choice to follow Him.
God has the power to destroy the earth and man again, as He did with the flood. He promised to never again do it with a flood.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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skepti- "non-sequitor."
How so?
Care to elaborate on: "it has the exact opposite effect on most people" and be sure to include your "devout christian friends.".
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Hey! gob came up with his own (more or less) thought! Congratulations!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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wes- "Sounds like the M.D. was a good christian, who else would call someone else's descision about their own life an outrage?
Well, to begin with, the good Dr.(that I was working with)was referring to the descision that his fellow doctor made "outrageous" in regards to letting this physically healthy man, who had no reason to die at the age of 59 other than he no longer wanted to live(we call that depression/mental illness)and decided to kill himself by starving himself to death.
Well this is called suicide. When a person is suicidal and threatens to take ones life, they are a risk to themselves and given help.
If someone is going to jump off a bridge, they hopefully are stopped, and they are placed in a psych ward and given help.
weschrist, you are obviously one of the people that would be cheering them on to jump. How pathetic.
wes- "Sounds like he was a good christian"
No, the doctor was not a Christian.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Ok, here we go-
After the Melliniam And when will this "melliniam" (I assume you mean millennium) occur? Haven't we had 2 already?
God's plan, that love not fear is the motivator Really? and this "lake of fire" is all about love, eh? Kinda interesting that sooo many preachers & priests throw this "hell" in our faces- but hey, it's all about love...
If you accept that god created the universe, then he created everything in it, and therefore he created evil. To say that evil was satan's idea is to say that god isn't all powerful. Why would god create evil if he wanted everyone to love one another? Seems like a pretty twisted dude. And if he's not omniscient, omnipotent & omnipresent, then he's not the top god. So take me to his leader.
Non-sequitur for that post, but you tried to address it in the following post.
"The opposite effect" means that people are turned away from your message. My devout friends (and I literally have dozens- christian, catholic, buddhist, hindu, muslim) don't go around spouting chapter & verse. They find a falseness in those who have to continually profess their love of god in that manner. Like you're desperate. Actions, as I said in an earlier post to gob, speak louder than words. I'm more interested in people who give their time freely doing good works than those who bend my ear just cheerleading. Without good deeds, your words are just empty promises.
Any other questions I can help with?
oops, edit:
When a person is suicidal and threatens to take ones life... So now you're playing god? Mighty presumptuous of you. Who says that a person can't decide his own fate? It's his life, not yours. I agree that he was likely depressed and should be offered counseling, but it's his choice to accept/reject. Again, this boils down to your personal morality. By blocking his free choice, you've imposed your religious rules on him. Feel free to do that in whatever country has the bible as its official religion, but not america.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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skept!
There are laws. Prior to 1972 people chose to outlaw abortion.
When a majority of like minded judges filled the supreme court(1972)that law was overturned. Well, the people voted for the president that put those judges in place, so the law is in effect untel those seats are filled by a majority of like minded judges that see otherwise(probably not until 20+ yrs)s.
The Bible does call for a righteous indignation to be voiced if a law goes against Gods law(simply said). So, I will vote accordingly to put people into office who will eventually elect judges that represent the will of the people(75% or more are against abortion).
You are saying that those who fought against slavery, even though it was lawful, were living by there own "moral choices". Your argument makes about as much sense as them using it to allow slavery.
I haven't gone into any of that here, I simply answered questions regarding the OP's "Serious Question" of why I believe in God.
Dr.F asked about "Hell", I answered.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Crimony your spelling sucks!
The common thread in my arguments is the right to choose to live life as one sees fit. But if your "freedom" impinges on someone else's personal rights, then it's not defensible. Slavery impinges on the slave's personal right to autonomy.
75% or more are against abortion
And where did you get that statistic? I believe that there are probably more than 50% of americans who don't think abortion is a good option, but I'm pretty sure that less than 50% would want the right to choose taken away.
Here's the results of last year's gallup poll according to Wiki:
2009 Jul 17-19
Legal under any circumstances 21%
Legal only under certain circumstances 57%
Illegal in all circumstances 18%
No opinion 4%
So clearly, more than 78% support choice at some level. Will of the people?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skeptic!
Sorry about the mistake in regards to % of for/against. Like I have said many times, it is not my focus. Besides, the situation in America in regards to the moral issues, falls heavily on the shoulders of the Christians not being a good witness/example of how to live, etc. The only way revival is going to take place in a country is when the Church repents/gets on their knees and asks for forgiveness. God deals with sin in the church first. Perhaps there is a huge house cleaning about to take place.
I focus on living a holy/Godly life. And if others want to know why(just like JDF asked)and have "Serious Questions" I will attempt to answer. But the majority of posters, the ones who have hijacked this thread, have no desire to find out the "Why!" and are only intent on destroying the "beliefs" of the ones that do "believe in God." That is who I have no time for!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Stick by your guns then, by all means.
But I've asked some serious questions regarding the very nature of god that have gone unanswered by those here who claim to know. These are difficult questions, I know. But sorting out just how evil has come to exist despite an all-powerful, loving god goes to the root of "why do people believe in god?" (at least for me)
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"The moral situation falls heavily on Christians..."
"When I shut up the heavens and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among my people, if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7 13-14
He is speaking to the church, and more specifically, speaking to the church/body of Christ here in America. Sit back and take notice.
Like I said earlier, it is the church where revival/judgment starts. He is/will do a spiritual house cleaning by judging the church first. That is the way it works.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Skept!
Yes, that was an excellent question. And I have done my best on various times here on this thread, and a few others on S/T (Christians take a called strike...")etc. And I said there and will say again here, I am not a pastor, and I don't believe that even pastors or theologians of the highest degree can fully answer that question.
But I will simply add to what i already said a few posts above(He could have destroyed Satan)that He wanted us to believe in Him and love Him. The only way that I can imagine or comprehend that occurring is if we had free choice. The angels were created with that free choice, just like Adam and Eve, and everyone else. A&E were in Paradise/Eden and as close to God as a person ever was. We would have done the very same thing they did. Therefore we inherited that nature.
Man could not follow the Law, that was shown in the long and drawn out process of the Hebrews/Israel. So God Himself came down and payed the price.
Evil in the world is a result of the fall of man, and man giving the right to rule over the earth "and all that dwells there in..." to Satan.
This all sounds absurd, but it is true. There is a spiritual realm.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Thanks for the effort. Doesn't quite put a cap on it for me.
This is one of the basic questions that has haunted man since the inception of organized religion, and I don't really expect anyone here to be able to answer it by asserting god exists to my satisfaction.
As I have said, I spent a lot of years searching, but always came up short. Only when I looked deep inside myself and put together the evidence did I realize what I consider to be the truth.
To each his own. 'nuff said (I hope...)
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WBraun
climber
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Since you don't have any clue what so ever of the soul, it's constitutional position, and how it works, your whole game is a useless childish nonsense.
You're no scientist.
Just a little kid guessing ......
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Interesting course you're charting. Might've deserved its own thread, but I see fully why we are discussing it here.
I guess I'm a little unclear on your definition of "Startling" (btw- do you mean "starling" instead- like the bird?). When you say anthropy are you meaning humans only, or do you mean to include other sentient species?
Personally, I would say I'm pretty solidly in your "robin" camp. My difficulty lies with the whole cosmology. If there was a point where nothing existed, then suddenly there was something, what's that all about? Is there just one universe? Are there multiple universes kinda like plastic balls in a kid's jumpy pen? It can all be parsed down to energy quanta, but where did that energy come from? What lies beyond? That's where religion keeps its tentative hold.
Once things came into existence, then I'm down with random combinations leading to life akin to the Urey -Miller primordial soup experiment. I think self-awareness developed at some point as an evolutionary advantage. The big problem is that there is no meaningful & reproducible way to measure this awareness in a way that could exclude the possibility of a "soul." Using current imaging techniques can only show alive vs dead. If the "soul" leaves the body at death, how can this be demonstrated or disproven?
edit: So werner, you're so smart; tell us what a soul is. And please be detailed and specific...
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Pate seems so bold when HIDING behind an internet psuedo name. Werner said it right and it
certainly applies to Pate:
"The way you are behaving you are likely to be reincarnated as a urinal".
Doug
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