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Tung Gwok
Mountain climber
South Bend, Indiana
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A quote from the article: “Angry atheism does not work,” Mr. Kurtz said. “It has to be friendly, cooperative relations with people of other points of view.” To that end, he and several former employees of the center are starting a new organization, the Institute for Science and Human Values.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Brilliant:
Skeptimistic said:
We treat our pets better than we treat our brethren. As a medical professional, if I perceive that one of my patients is suffering, it is my duty to relieve that suffering. If that means ending their intractable suffering by empowering them to terminate their own life, then it is my professional and moral duty to do so. Kevorkian never killed anyone. He provided the means for others to do it themselves using his device.
Do not waste your or our time trying to convince us that we're going to burn in hell. If it's true, then you can stand at the edge of the pit and dance, singing "I told you so". But if you're wrong, then in those last moments when you realize it was all a fairy tale, I expect you to feel the full weight of the guilt you will bear for being a road block in the quest to relieve suffering of your fellow humans.
Hard-over, myopic bible thumpers like yourself are one of the great evils in this world.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Skep wrote-
(1) "Now, I know that there has been some agitation on both sides and it really needs to end asap..."
(2) "Neither of us is more right than the other, but neither is less right too."
Totally disagree. On count one, sometimes the benefits of agitation outweigh its costs. This is such a case. On count two, it depends on whether we're talking facts, views, preferences, etc.. If we're talking facts, then certainly one side can be "more right" than another.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Angry atheism does not work
In the same vein, paternalistic, dogmatic fundamentalism doesn't either. If no one is willing to listen, then it's just a shouting match.
HFCS- on point 2- No one on this plane of existence knows what lies beyond. Anyone that tells you differently is trying to sell something. I believe I know just as the Xtians believe they know, but there is absolutely no evidence to conclusively prove one way or the other, which is why this thread is sooo long.
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WBraun
climber
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"No one on this plane of existence knows what lies beyond."
Well you don't that's for sure.
Doesn't mean there are those that know, you wouldn't recognize them anyways even if they were standing right in front of you unless they revealed themselves to you.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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"No one on this plane of existence knows what lies beyond."
To what degree of certainty? 13%, 92%, 100.00000000000000%? This is an old philosophical theological thought trap - developed long long ago and maintained by "sophisticated" theists or theologians - that's easy to fall into. Don't fall for it. Avoid it. Instead, reframe it.
"No one knows..." I have a high level of confidence that when I pull the plug on my cpt, it's functionality doesn't transcend to some other plane. I have a high level of confidence that when a sparrow falls from the tree, it's functionality doesn't transcend to some other plane. I have that same high level of confidence in regard to our species. Special dispensation for H. sapiens would be a form of anthropocentrism, anthropic chauvinism or animal apartheid, whatever.
"No one knows..." When you say that, you ignore decades of education from biology and evolutionary theory and all across science. Every science and engineering discipline points to close relations between structure and function, cause n effect.
The problem is attitude, also courage, and coming to grips with the mortality of living things - evolved living things - which includes H. sapiens. How many umpteen millions don't even try. Another problem is we don't (yet) have a full-on narrative to inspire this attitude, change in attitude, and courage, nor to offer us support in this area and related areas. But I'm confident in time, we will. Human ingenuity is needed. But it is on the way.
We are decision-making organisms. That is our species special ability. Don't surrender this ability.
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EDIT
I am NOT "agnostic" concerning Mediterranean Gods (Aphrodite to Zeus) or Mesopotamian Gods (Ishtar to Yahweh). I am NOT "agnostic" concerning the mortality of evolved lifeforms on this planet either. Also, I am NOT "agnostic" concerning Satan (a so-called fallen angel according to this ancient theology, theistics) as a basis for evil (why bad things happen in the world). My decision made long ago: That is fiction, superstition, bronze age misconception laid down in myth (narrative, story) and institution long ago. Again, my decision. I exercised my decision-making powers in these areas - my right, my interest, even arguably my duty as a responsible citizen in today's world - and am accountable for them.
To be "agnostic" in these areas in this day and age esp is a cop out. Repeat: Cop out. At least for those who have a lifelong science education and general life education and a certain value system. Yeah, that is an attitude, too. Right now, it is mine. And millions of others. And soon enough, I predict, an institution's in the making. Can't wait.
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Science is clear. Mind is a product of brain. No brain, no mind. When the brain decays, the mind decays. That is an example of decision-making ability that doesn't require proof to a mathematical certainty, only proof to reasonableness. (-Which beats the sh#t out of any decision-making that "you have to be open-minded regarding Lazereth or Meshack or Samson because you were not there.") Decision-making ability based on reasonableness. Millions of people educated in science and engineering disciplines and general life savvy are using it. Be one of them.
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WBraun
climber
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I have a high level of confidence that when I pull the plug on my cpt, it's functionality doesn't transcend to some other plane.
Then plug the plug right now dude and be real scientist instead of all your cheap talk.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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hey Fructose, not so fast...
...if I sit down with a copy of Newton's Opitcks and read it, working through the experiments, I get a bit of Newton with it... like having a conversation with him across nearly 300 years. Not bad, his brain has long rotted away but his ideas, and even his voice, seem to persist.
I don't mean to infer that there is something supernatural about this persistence, but rather our consciousness may expand beyond individuals...
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WBraun
climber
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It's a special technical vocabulary.
Those words only describe, just like the word water will never quench your thirst.
You actually need the substance water.
There are words that are non-different from the substance and are absolute and saying/vibrating that word will quench your thirst anywhere.
Inferior words made up by a mundane person will only go so far but real sound vibration is non-different from the source and actually accomplish what one really needs/wants ....
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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I have a high level of confidence that when I pull the plug on my cpt...
Yes, but your machine isn't biological. While I believe that there is no "great beyond" to which our individual consciousness (aka: soul) transcends, I cannot conclusively deny the possibility. The only way we will know is to cross that dividing line (live/dead) or figure out a way to detect/disprove it.
If you've figured out some way to conclusively prove that there is no next level, then please share it and oh, stop by Stockholm to pick up your Nobel Prize on your way to your tenured position at the University of your choice.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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"I cannot conclusively deny the possibility..."
I use the word “conclusively” to mean... designating or of a conclusion.
Curiously, how are YOU using (or defining) the word. It is as if you’re using it synonymously to mean... to a mathematical certainty (100.0000%). If that is the case, we do not disagree – and you have never heard me say I am certain to a mathematical standard of 100.00% that there is no beyond or that this life is a one-shot deal. Then again, there is a world of difference between reasonable certainty and mathematical certainty (or a reasonable conclusion and a mathematically derived conclusion). Also, there is a world of difference between reasonable certainty (in order to proceed with further decision making) and what many a religious conservative calls out as certainty (which we might call religious certainty) to further his case, decision-making, etc.
Bottom line. I don’t need 100.00% mathematical certainty to draw conclusions in my decision-making process, only reasonable ones. -Not in problem solving, not in my creative pursuits or adventures, not in my everyday living, not in my beliefs as a basis for my practice of living either. -In order to proceed. Thank goodness, too, because if I did, I’d perhaps never get off the couch, let alone go climbing.
Anyway, that's all I'm saying. For now. ;)
....
But all this tempest in a teapot does point out that our modern culture REALLY is in need of some new subjects or disciplines in academia (even high school) along with some new language or short terminology sets to improve the discourses circa such elementary issues as these. It's really lacking. In so many ways, there is a great deal of catching up to do.
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"I believe that there is no "great beyond" to which our individual consciousness (aka: soul) transcends..."
Sounds like a "conclusive" statement to me in that it is drawing a conclusion - indeed a "reasonable" one, science supported, to boot - that I too have made. Which means... we agree.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Compare-
(a) "If you've figured out some way to "conclusively" prove to a reasonable standard that there is no next level, then please share it."
(b) "If you've figured out some way to "conclusively" prove to 100.00% mathematical certainty that there is no next level, then please share it."
For the latter I haven't. But for the former, I have. Yes, that's right. I'll share it now. ANS: Modern science education. A lifetime in the making. Kinda like climbing - for some, a lifetime in the making. -Not for the faint of heart. And "therein lies the rub."
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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You're right- we're arguing over semantics. I do mean 100% because I think that is what it would take for people on the opposite side of the argument to accept it, as it would take that for me to believe in their interpretation.
We both are in agreement as to our views. Sorry if it sounded like an attack. I like precise definitions...
Edit: Ha! this post is #4020 and it was 4:20 on my computer! Must be a sign!
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Repost for the Abrahamites:
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Homer
Mountain climber
742 Evergreen Terrace
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I like that idea Ed. There is an us that is made up of each of us, and that us has an intelligence (information) that transcends anyone's individual intelligence (information).
For each of us (and all of us people), our information is uniquely incomplete. Individually, we have innate information (genetics, instincts) and learned information (experiences). The greater us has some extra information about latency of information change in individuals, what is best for the species, or maybe ultimately reality as a whole, that it builds into each of us, but we don't yet understand it's benefits. Maybe an inkling, looking at the efficacy of learning algorithms.
I think the benefits of that latency, as well as the diversity of individual's beliefs (information), is the key to the OP's question. Our incomplete information suggests that it's stupidity, but I think that's just a reflection of our own inability to understand the unfathomable intelligence of reality.
There is some extremely important information in people's belief in God, and it's not to our advantage to lose that information.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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I feel hurt and persecuted by the literal fundamentalists on this thread.
Trip7 in particular has acted very unChristianlike by attacking my back pain
and suggesting that I am drug addled and not really in need of pain meds.
Gobee continually assaults my senses, and he refuses to talk about it.
If I can't turn to men of God, then who can I turn to?
Guess I will have to follow the bible's teachings and sell my wife into slavery.
Or beat the crap out of my child, or else he will be "spoiled".
Maybe sacrificing my daughter will makes things ok again.
Sigh, so little time and so much torture and murdering left to do to be saved.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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^^^
Makes a great gag gift for the secret santa or office party!
As a kid, my dad used to tell me frequently that there are more people today that believe the earth is flat than any other time in history. (He's not a flat-earther). Apparently there is a place out in the Mojave that these people use to prove their "truth".
Oh well, back to listening to a little "music of the spheres" (Eine kline spheremusik?)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Dr. F.-
I'm pulling a Fructose on you and telling you need to refine your definitions.
This is what Christian Science looks like
In fact Christian Science as you have spelled it is a modern interpretation of Christianity founded by Mary Baker Eddy. They have no objections to modern science except for its application to medicine and their own members.
Christian Science in regard to astronomy is an incorrect term. The model came from Aristotle. European Medieval Science would be a better term since Jews, Muslims, and nature worshipping religions such as the Druids etc. upheld this view until Galileo's knowledge became accepted. It took even longer for Gallileo's views to reach Asia.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"Just as man is destined to die once, and after that face judgment." Hebrews 9:27
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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i have no time to waste on such futile endeavors Maybe we should let him and this thread rest in peace So, frankly i could care less about the lost God haters here any longer
You keep bowing out, but then you come back. If you're questioning whether to "stay or should you go?", you know what more than a few of us vote for. And feel free to invite your friends along too.
I know you can't, (just like the rest of us...)
Now if I could just get this hook out of my cheek...
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