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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Sep 20, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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Trip, that's despicable. We all know guilt is your faith's stock in trade, but man, that's low even by those standards.
Here's some interesting data:
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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cintune- "that's despicable..."
What is dispicable is/was the post by one of you God haters blaming Christians for Dr. Kevorkians imprisonment! Dr. Death is the dispacable and ultimate issue of godless reasoning.
Guilt?
Ultimately, it was JDF's "choice", and none of us should carry any "guilt" over his choice.
But yes, guilty we all are of sin. Believe what you will.
Cintune, I was simply saying that perhaps you were successful in convincing JDF of that, according to the non-believers, there is no God. If he was seriously considering such. There is so much hate spewed here against those of faith...it is pathetic.
We offered(i didn't start posting untel the last 10 months)hope in a God that would have given him peace.
He asked a simple question...you gave him your conclusions.
JDF came to the final conclusions. His choice.
edit: I think about JDF everytime i come to this thread, but was thinking about the recent post(maybe on another S/T thread)about Dr. Death!
Once again, JDF initiated this thread with the possible hope of believing in God. Of course we, or perhaps many of us if not all, considered it somewhat of a troll. I am as "guilty' as anyone in not taking him serious. I wish I would have e-mailed him or something.
Many of you "non-believers" offered him lots of support ie, going climbing at Stony Point etc.
We all have our own beliefs, there just seems to be an incredible amount of hate and derision of "believers" here...very depressing. And not what JDF asked. Go back to his first couple of posts. He was sincerely searching. You should have started your own thread "Why DON'T so many..."
Just my opinion. I'll live with it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
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"What is dispacable is/was the post by one of you God haters blaming Christians for Dr. Kevorkians imprisonment! "
I believe he's referring to me. -Which would be a mis-reading of what I said. No surprise there.
Cintune- Excellent graphic. Thought-provoking. It's been a long day, am I just not seeing China in there?
.....
"God-hater" - no. Apollo and Jehovah and Marduk dejector, rejector, repealer, recaller, yes. Reminder: I believe in certain "Gods of Deification" as useful symbols, tools, utilities. Big diff. Big. (Great forces or powers deified, personified, by man for purposes of metaphor use, mythology or story telling - but any more elaboration there is for another day.) - Astrophes and Hypercrates to name two - both reflections and representations of how the world works in accordance with science, science edu and the Scientific Story. Granted, it's a more advanced "technical" theology - those raised and imprinted on ol' time "simplified traditional" theistics or theology aren't expected to get it or take to it so why try.
If he repeals, he "hates". If he discontinues, he "hates". If he rejects, he "hates". Is that it? More than a few of us now are on to the "attack words" and "talking points" and "victimization" language and passive aggressive strategies of the evangelical fundamentalists of whatever Abrahamic religion as they fight their final battles on the losing side of history.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
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If we follow Tony's advice we would have the Dalai Lama and a population of 6 million making a suicidal last stand against 1.3 billion. Good plan Tony!
If you knew your history, our government already sponsored that in collusion with the Dalai Lama's brother. Lots of good Tibetan Khampa guerillas got killed, but no Americans. We did get one or two mail bags of intelligence in one raid. We probably spent a million dollars for each letter and managed to poison the relationship between Tibetans and Chinese for at least two generations. Another excellent plan, Tony!
Of course we then backtracked on our policy and while the last of the Tibetan guerillas were fleeing across Nepal to safety in India on horseback, they were gunned down from Nepalese helicopters originating in the United States and their bloody clothes put on display in tents in the public park in downtown Kathmandu as a lesson in the efficacy of violent resistance. Another good plan no doubt.
As for the Dalai Lama supporting Tibet's elite, they were the backbone of the Tibetan guerillas whose work you advocated. Now you're suggesting he turn on them? Or perhaps he already has, by advocating democracy and setting up a Tibetan parliament in exile?
Or perhaps you're against all the teachers and social workers who are Tibetan Buddhist monks and nuns, giving Tibetan refugee children a free education in their own culture in India, a country which can not provide free schooling for all its own citizens even. Better they grow up illiterate I suppose, than be taught by elites who work for free. Another great plan!
Once again, it's easy to be negative and criticize, but a lot harder to come up with constructive alternatives, isn't it Tony?
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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tony , you've outdone yourself...again
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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Jonnnyyyzzz!
Thanks for the link "Privileged Planet" i watched all 12 parts...excellent, informative, and thought provoking.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 09:34pm PT
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High- "I believe he is referring to me. -Which would be a miss-reading of what I said. No surprise there."
High- "It is America, the land of the free after all. And if, because of your beliefs, you don't gang up with others of like mindedness to try to legislate- to try to (a)persecute gays, (b)jail the Dr. Kevorkians, (c)limit stem cell research, (d)limit pro-choice people in their choices, (e)teach the bible in public school, etc.- all the better.
So, what you are implying is, according to (b), "all the better" to not hold the Dr. Kevorkians responsible for their actions. I call it murder.
That is "despicable" in my opinion, and for that matter, according to the Hippocratic Oath, etc. And what i was alluding to above.
"No surprise" whatsoever.
It is no surprise to me that the prophecy of "The Holy Bible" is coming true in these days, in that:
"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil.
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness." Isiah 5:20
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 20, 2010 - 09:54pm PT
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Trip7!
You are really pissing me off now with your talk calling Dr. Kevorkian guilty
of "murder".
You ignorant slut.
Kevorkian had more human compassion in his little finger than you ever will.
He did NOT "kill" anyone.
Those miserable, terminal, suffering human beings ASKED him to become involved.
THEY made the decision that THEY did NOT want to suffer any more.
Kevorkian KNEW he would be arrested and spend years in prison.
I ADMIRE the courage and guts he had to face that consequence and STILL
decide to help one more TERMINAL, SUFFERING, human being end their life.
I ADMIRE men with his compassion. You should too.
Don't you dare shoot your ignorant, 13th century, mouth off like that.
YOU ought to be ashamed of yourself
Oh, by the way. Don't lump me in with the "god haters".
You can't hate what does not exist.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sep 20, 2010 - 09:55pm PT
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I don't believe in a God of the past, but I could conceive of a being with more-or less God-like qualities coming into existence in the future. I'm talking about a being with qualities like immortality, omniscience, and omnipotence. I'm pessimistic it will come from the human line, although, in principle, it could.
It's certainly not inconceiveable that virtual immortality (within the time-frame of our galaxy or Universe) could be achieved by a merging of the human mind with technology. It's also not hard to envision all of those minds linked together. That would cover the 'omniscient' part. Let's see, we still have 'omnipotent' to go. Omnipotent's always a tough one, because there's always some joker in the crowd asking thing likes "can You create an object so heavy You can't pick up?". Since it's hard to get everybody on the same page when it comes to defining 'omnipotent', let's such say, our God's is successful on 99% of the 'all-powerful' questions anyone could conceive of.
Anyhow, if it doesn't happen on this planet, there are likely billions of other planets with life where such an evolution might take place. In fact, like evolution, where millions of lineages die out, I suspect that only a very few will survive to evolve these God-like qualities.
So don't hate evolution - embrace it. Don't be a roadblock to God's First Coming.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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Norton.
They were depressed. As an O.T. I have worked with the terminally ill. I worked at Midway Hospital in Los Angeles, in conjunction with Ceder Sinai in L. A., it was the leading care provider for the Aides epidemic of the 80's and 90's and also with the terminally ill cancer patients, etc. I worked there for several years, and have held dieing people in my arms and have grieved with their loved ones on dozens of occasions. They were kept "comfortable", that was the primary focus at that point. There suffering was equivelent and surpassed the suffering of the various patients of Dr. Death. They have sufficient pain meds. that is not the issue. It is self worth, depression and no longer willing to live.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 20, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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the united states and china have been in bed together ever since george bush sr. was ambassador over there. the student freedom movement in china made the mistake of thinking it could turn its dictatorial government around at tian an men and that the freedom-loving, communism-hating "leader of the free world" would stand with them. big miscalculation.
if the united states wanted to put pressure on china, it could have done so then and any time since then. but they're in bed together. maybe klimmer has it right, it's all being dictated by aliens from an ark on the moon. china owns our markets, siphons the money out of our wallets every time we shop. want to pressure the sumbitches? shut 'em out from our markets. easy as pie. why doesn't it happen? the politics goes a little deeper than you calculate, jan. the guerilla efforts were just a charade. it made us look "good", doing what we're supposed to do, like when we were trying to ferret bin laden out of caves. believe me, if this government really wanted to do either of those things, it would've been a piece of cake. you can't hide from the technology and the surveillance. every country in the world knows that, but you on your marine base apparently don't.
don't expect to hear your dalai lama talk about any of these things. he knows not to rankle people who have the real power in ways that would embarrass them. at such times he shifts into holy gear and gives us platitudes to live by. he's almost as good at that as jimmy carter. any day now, the meek will inherit the earth, and they'll all be wearing aloha shirts.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 20, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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Norton/Fans of Dr. Death!
BTW & FWIW.
I was diagnosed by Kaiser as having a "TERMINAL" illness and believe me i "SUFFERED" for over four(4)years with a hideously painful peripheral nerve disease/diagnosis that i have described elsewhere on the Taco. Can't say that I didn't consider/pray for death because I did. I am very happy that there is NO Dr. Death available for such circumstances.
Suffering is a terrible thing...
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 21, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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We have more mercy for our pets than we do for ourselves. We've got over 6 billion people on the planet. What matter if a few of them want to end their suffering when they've been diagnosed with a terminal, excruciatingly painful condition. Perhaps they don't want to saddle their families with the astronomical costs that will be incurred just to give them an extra month of pain.
If you think it's immoral, that's your own choice. Don't inflict your religious views on others. Are you afraid there's going to be a mad rush to be euthanized? Just like they're afraid everyone's going to go gay if marriage is finally realized to be a civil right?
Ever hear of locked-in syndrome? How about Huntington's Chorea? Just a tiny sample of terrible things that can't be cured and I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Not giving them a chance to shorten their suffering is cruel beyond words.
I don't think a compassionate god would inflict that kind of suffering on his children, do you?
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Sep 21, 2010 - 12:28am PT
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When I lived in India I had an apt right down the road from the Dalai Lama in the middle of little Tibet.
I agree with everything Tony Bird says. I lived there 7 months and and got to know my neighbors very well. I have 1000 more photos to prove it. The good the bad & the ugly.
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go-B
climber
Matthew 25:40
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Sep 21, 2010 - 12:39am PT
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eeyonkee, what about Jesus, son of man and son of God?
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 21, 2010 - 12:52am PT
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Skeptic- "Don't inflict...are you afraid..."
I'm not inflicting anyone. I have a right to voice my opinion and beliefs, just as you have, and vote if I so choose. And comment, etc.
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"Don't inflict..." what a joke.
And I have no fear...period.
I am a licensed and registered occupational therapist(OTR/L). We are trained to diagnose, establish treatment plans, and treat such diagnosis as Huntington's Chorea and locked in syndrome and various other progressive neurological/degenerative disorders/diseases. How do you think I felt when I was diagnosed with one in 2003?
edit: BTW, I can understand your points of view. someday, sooner or later, you will also.
a "compassionate god" didn't inflict it upon mankind. death and disease came with the fall of mankind/sin. things you don';t believe, nor have the capacity to understand since you are a part of that very fallen nature. it requires a 'relationship' with the Creator. He will reveal Himself to anyone who asks...something i doubt you will ever do. so i have no time to waste on such futile endeavors(you)...later!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 21, 2010 - 01:49am PT
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Skeptic!
i just took a quick look/scan of you 170 or so posts. something like 98% or more are related to the religion/God/political etc. threads.
Hmmmmnnnn.
I can see how some individuals have an agenda to further political and anti-god views, but this is a climbing/climbers thread, I am sure you have more to offer.
BTW, I for one am fully in favor of ending this thread. Giving the front page and the thread more relative topics. Probably why I rarely post here and similar threads anymore.
With all due respect to JDF, I believe he has found the answer to his question by now(as will all who have posted here when the time comes). Maybe we should let him and this thread rest in peace.
FYI, one of the last things JDF did was to delete/nuke this thread. Someone didn't respect his decision to do so, and they brought it back to life.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 21, 2010 - 02:32am PT
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i have no time to waste on such futile endeavors(you)...later!
Aww, now you've gone and hurt my fillings... Thanks for taking the time to review my posts. I guess that means I've hit a nerve.
As far as your being an OT, that's great. But here in CA at least that means you treat the hand/wrist and sometimes the elbow. Physical Therapists like myself treat the entire body including the cardiovascular, pulmonary, integumentary, musculoskeletal, and nervous systems (which is my chosen specialty). We have been lax in allowing parts of our profession to be coopted by others. But we're actively involved in taking back that which was once exclusively our domain.
While I agree that you have a right to your opinion, your beliefs, and your ability to vote as you see fit, I take great exception to the conservative agenda that is trying to steer the political process toward a christian-focused agenda and adoption of fundamental morality to interpret laws. If you want to live your life according to those principles, I fully support you. But see, there's the difference- you don't allow me the same courtesy.
You might want to rethink what you interpret as my understanding of religion. I'm pretty well read on the mainstream religions and quite a few of the more esoteric ones. I spent many years looking for god. Thought I found it a few times, but I fortunately grew out of blindly accepting what others think and learned to think for myself. I am very comfortable with my personal spirituality.
I think if you distill all of my political and religious posts down to one common message, it's that I defend personal freedom and choice where I perceive a threat from dogma and blind fundamentalism. If you happen to fall on that side of the fence, then I guess we will always be at odds. Come on over and visit some time. You might find a great weight is lifted off your shoulders and you can learn to trust your instincts as well as others'. Don't worry, I won't bite.
BTW- your math's a little off. It's more like about 50% of my posts are religious topics. Try not to exaggerate please. It takes away from your credibility.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Sep 21, 2010 - 03:23am PT
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Skeptic.
I can tell you either no little, but most likely feigning so, in regards to Occupational Therapist, a much more comphrehensive discipline. You are limited to the physical nature of disease not the area nor depth of the neurological disorders that we are. Shoulder/elbow/wrist/and hand are in relation to the outpatient physical disorders. In patient is much more neurologically expansive in regards to OT. But who gives a sh#t about this here? And both professions have been working side by side for over 90 years or so. Not really of much interest to me since we are both well compensated and should focus more on who we are treating instead of feeling insignificant in what we have been blessed with, and, for example attempting to steal an area of focus and superior understanding/schooling ie. "upper extremity..." and just be happy with what you have(PT=backs)...I could care less. Can you, as a P.T. work in a locked psych unit? No. Do you work with the neurological retraining of individuals in the activities of daily living skills(ADL's) required by HT(head trauma), stroke, or neurological disorders that we have been discussing in order to be discharged home(rather then to a nursing home)? No. We both work with the physical aspects of such disorders. Sit to stand. Bed mobility(at least I do this one). Transfers to wheelchairs/walkers/etc. But do you(PT's)facilitate in the actual improvement of basic skills such as dressing, shaving, washing, eating etc. to eventual discharge from the hospital or nursing home when applicable to there desired residence? Surely you have sat and listened to who the burden/weight is placed upon by the M.D.'s when an individual is up for either being sent home, or to a nursing home for the rest of their life...the O.T.(us, not P.T.'s)think about living with that ultimatum. Your focus is wether or not the person can walk, period. We have the burden of preparing the person/evaluating/treating/ and discharging the patient to one or the other. Not an easy task. Plus of course, much more depending on our specific area of specialty. Blah, blah blah. But I do have utmost respect for P.T's. Even if they are attempting to weezeel their way in to our profession/and the upper extremity etc.
This is all very blase'...
As far as religion etc. goes, the burden is on the Church being right with God, not the Church trying to convince the world they are going to hell. God can deal with the pagan world with a snap of His fingers. It is about our obediance to Him. We are called to take the Gospel to the ends of the earth. And to stand up for what the Bible teaches as truth. You are the ones attempting to remove thousands of years of truth, such as "Thou shalt not kill." from existence. I believe America, non believers, can expect a much heavier judgment for their non belief when the time comes.
The Church(Christians)are who God is calling to repent. And live as an example to the lost. That is my focus. Not politics, science, etc. We are the ones God is holding responsible, just like He expected the Hebrews of the Old Testament to set an example and obey. We care about(or at least should)you, and our lost family and friends, more than ourselves. But it has got away from the Church with the prosperity gospel/health & wealth gospel etc. God is calling the Church to repent(in America anyway).
I have perfect peace. I am free from bondage. Free from fear and death. You have nothing to offer me.
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