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Gene
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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Nice summation, Largo!
gm
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 22, 2009 - 06:14pm PT
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"Since no one knows God, or can know god."
You present this as though you knew this for an absolute fact: that throughout all time and space, no person has EVER known God. I will ask: How do you know that?
I think one of the hardest things about anything spiritual is dealing with doubt and not knowing in the fact and figures kind of way. At least it is for me. I'm not sure that I KNOW a damn thing about any of it.
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 07:08pm PT
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Vrindavan
Raised there? He's very fortunate. It's the center of the universe.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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"On the Origin of Species" is brilliant. It changed scientific thought and direction from the time it was published until now – with modest revisions due our progress in observational ability and analysis. Everyone should read this book. One of my favorites. Darwin was able to connect the dots that he observed. A great mind. A seminal work.
gm
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 22, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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"Newsflash, if you define something as the "quintessential unseen" it will never be seen, regardless of whatever else you happen to see."
This presumes that the only way to "know" something is to see it, smell it, hear it, taste it, feel it, think about it and measure it. In other words, "knowing" is a brain function, something the brain does. But this view is mistaken, according to many neuroscientists. Knowing and consciousness are not things the brain does, they are what the brain IS.
But any way you shake it, it will always come back to: Who am I? What IS this life I have? And how deep can I take these questions? Some sit on the sidelines and snipe - like I'm doing here. Others put in the effort to find out for themselves. And that takes a lot of time to let the mind start to be quiet.
JL
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Gene
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 07:41pm PT
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del_cross,
It is thick, but that was the style of the time. That takes nothing away from how much it has changed perceptions over time. Slug through it. How can you knott enjoy a sea story from a ship named the "Beagle?"
God bless,
Gene
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
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Definitely never ever Darwin. He's the rascal that misleads anyone who follows him.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 22, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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I kind of think this thread has taken a turn for the worse. Nobody is listening to anybody. Yall haven't been even attempting to hear eachother. Let alone answer eachother's questions thoughtfully. Lots of hot air and defensiveness.
Anybody willing to step back and engage in a healthy discussion?
Howbout this. I'll go buy and read any book or text the atheists in the room want me to. If they'll do the same. I got a couple good reads, and I won't use the Bible. Then we can talk out what we've read and hash it out.
I'm interested in seeing where the atheists get some of their ideas.
Dr. F, Paul, Wes, you guys interested?
It'll be better than the mousewheel yall are running on now.
Any takers?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 22, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
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Largo writes
"
But any way you shake it, it will always come back to: Who am I? What IS this life I have? And how deep can I take these questions? Some sit on the sidelines and snipe - like I'm doing here. Others put in the effort to find out for themselves. And that takes a lot of time to let the mind start to be quiet. "
Wise words although I bet you're not always on the sidelines.
Best to have a will and intention to be open to investigation and insight about this important topic.
After all, to assume, due to the short-sightedness of some religious interpretations, that nothing is possible, that nothing is there, is certainly betting against yourself.
After all, if this life and this world is all there is, and we can see that most people neither really like themselves nor their lives, then life is crap and then you die.
Personally, I have to say that the years I've spent picking the wheat from the chaff have been very fruitful for me. I'm feeling very deeply blessed and really happy. It's not based on any smug ideas or superiority, but a love in my heart and peace of mind that's not based on any concepts but rather seems to spring from my essential "soul" Sometimes, I can't even contain more fullness and joy.
With that blessing, I can see the beauty in everyone and know I'm not above anyone. Not trying to preach but I think we're at a crossroads as humanity so it only feels fair to share that actual experience and practical results in the spiritual realm are possible. They don't depend on blind faith but a self experimental unlearning of our negative and habitual thinking, and openness to grace.
There are many people who know this from practical experience and who won't beat you over the head with it. The silent understanding is to let everyone have their own lives and free will. Perhaps that leads people to think "nobody knows."
It's more a case of, if you know, you don't need to make a lot of noise about it, nor push or judge others to accept you ways.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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micronut -- "I kind of think this thread has taken a turn for the worse."
Nah it's doing great. Grow some balls man. We're all one happy family, with lurkers in the wood works all rollin their eyeballs.
This is the life. In the old daze guys in the know flew in on their magic carpets. Now those carpets lay on the floors lifeless trampled by feet unknown, replaced by inferior carpets of metal that roar.
Magic .... it's what makes the world go round.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 22, 2009 - 10:16pm PT
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Alright Werner, you're right, the fact that this post is still alive means its worth stayin' in the fray. I gotta eat some dinner, then I might check in to see if Weschrist has seen the light.
Stranger things have happened.
And anyway, it took four hundred and something posts to draw Largo into the ring. Maybe around 800 we'll attract some real climbers.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 22, 2009 - 10:24pm PT
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micro, "real climbers" ? Sheee for quite a few years I lived with a real climber. I did not feel his ways, thoughts, ideas and philos's were any better than mine. And now he's not here and I be climbing. Not great climbing, but I can think.... :D and if he were here he would support mi thoughts.... Peace lrl
Del cross, the unexpected happens. Old dogs can figure out new stuff. I would not discount debate or debate that works change. :D Lynnie
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 22, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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Why should I agree to read Darwin when I already have, and researched it to the core?
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 22, 2009 - 10:47pm PT
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Yeah, giggles skip...and no fatal attraction here. :D lrl
del, always appreciate yo imput. Seriously, we may be seeing him in the clouds. So enjoying the imput and enjoyment of thoughts connected....tho not necessarily agreeing, Need to share the importance of Life and Eternal Life.
Love, Peace and Joy ...Lynnie
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 01:09pm PT
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Dr F
Just go on and enjoy your life. You're a waste of time for me.
I can fill this whole thread with knowledge for Darwin's mistakes. This is not the place for it.
When you so made your statements that GOD does not exist and can't be proven I just came in to say that's not true at all, and he does exists and can be proven.
Your fundamental logic is very poor for claiming to be a scientist.
Atheists commonly accuse theists of having created the idea of God to satisfy certain psychological needs. A more reasonable person, they say, can do without this crutch and instead learn from the cold, hard facts of science, whose findings inevitably lead us to conclude there's no God.
Atheists, however, are not free of biases and psychological needs, and these influence both their experimental findings and their attitude toward various scientific theories. Though they may flatter themselves, they are not immune to seeing things the way they want. The theory of Darwinian evolution is a case in point.
"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist," says Richard Dawkins, professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University. For those with atheistic tendencies, Darwin was a savior. He made it possible for the scientists to do away with the need for God. His theory supposedly shows that all life forms evolved through strictly mechanistic processes.
Now that is the starting point.
You can take it as far as you want, but without me.
Like I said you're a huge waste of time .....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 23, 2009 - 01:21pm PT
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This thread seems to have drifted (a long while ago) into the classic is there a God or not argument. Although I am an atheist, I do have issues with certain religions more than others, and it's basically with how far from science and common sense they diverge. Here is my list of core beliefs, arranged in order of increasing incredulity.
1. Believe in an afterlife. (Just about all but Judaism). Easy to see why people want to believe this (although not me).
2. Don't believe in evolution (many Christian branches). Admittedly, takes a pretty good background in science to really understand it, although the evidence is overwhelming.
3. Believe that the Bible (or some other book) was "written" by God and is infallible (many religions). Hard for me to understand that anyone can believe this. All you have to do is look into the research done, or, for that matter, just start cherry-picking passages from the old testament and see how they hold up.
4. Believe in a 6,000 year old earth (evangelical Christians, others). Again, it does take just a little bit of scientific background. A one-inch bed of shale probably represents more time than 6,000 years.
5. Just about anything that the Mormans believe. Where do I start?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:20pm PT
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The proof of god's existence or non existence is the responsibility of the theist not the atheist. If you posit something as true for which the evidence is ambiguous at best, and then claim that because others can't prove you wrong your posit is true, your dealing in the illogical. The theist can only posit individual anecdotal experience without transcendental evidence as proof for the existence of God. The real proof that god doesn't exist, certainly as a personal deity, is the inability of theists to prove that he does. Dr. F you have done a noble job here and should be cheered for your thoughtful, rational analysis. With continuous negative remarks of a personal nature toward those not agreeing with him, Wbraun is surely damaging his "karma" and will likely come back in the next life as a rectal thermometer.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 23, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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roehl
I will likely come back in the next life as a rectal thermometer.
Hahahaha LOL that's a good one. I like that.
If you believe for an instant that I even remotely care if you agree with me or not, you're definitely dreaming.
I said GOD can be proven and he exists. I never said I'm going to prove it on an internet forum, and neither are you going to prove he doesn't exist on an internet forum. Arguments and debates only go so far, until they proceed in a circular fashion.
Arguments and debates then become useless.
You are a fool.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 23, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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The argument isn't circular, its only fault is that it lacks focus. I worry when you call me a fool what with your considerable expertise in the matter.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Jan 23, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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"I said GOD can be proven"
I know you like Yosar and all Werner, but maybe you should give this a go. For if it were true, you'd be the first. It's doubtful you'd have to work again after that. It's a big leap to go from belief/faith to proof. One that hasn't been bridged yet.
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