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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:16pm PT
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What I hate, is how much I'm agreeing with that sleazy weasel weakwrist, these days...
Though I think Ray truly nailed it with the fear thing. I think that really is what it's all about. why do feel we have to work around that, seemingly obvious truth?
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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Jody says,"You have to look at the big picture, not just a few isolated cases that stand out".
Jody, once again you missed my point,which is... to look at what is best for kids languishing in the foster care system.
I think being raised by caring/loving parents is key, whether they are gay, or straight does not matter.
Looking forward to my friends replys to your questions,She will apeak from experence.....
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:25pm PT
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Jody, just how many mammalian species would have to exhibit homosexual behavior for you to believe it is simply a natural expression of being a mammal? Again, it is explicitly no different than being left-handed. Did you choose to be whichever handed you are given there is no handedness gene?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:40pm PT
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"Still waiting on the documentation for the proof of being born homosexual..."
I have seen some news articles where scientists have found that gay people's brains are physiologically different than straight peoples. Also, if I remember correctly, differences in hormonal levels between homo and hetero sexuals in studies.
But - the GOOD news is that even though Jody does not agree with the concept it is possible, it don't make a difference, except to keep this ST thread in a race to overpower the bolting Half Dome one....
The thing about sex being "for" procreation, and not for pleasure - Just because some religious factions have stated that - does not mean it is true.
If it were true - then wouldn't it go to follow that people would not be interested in doing it except when women were in heat, errrr, I mean ovulating?
I would suggest that anyone who follows the belief it's reproductive only maybe ought to choose to abide by that natural law then, and not go off pleasure-seeking.
On the other hand - if sex didn't feel good - would people still do it, even just for reproduction? I can tell you that I'm pretty sure that if a woman is pissed off at her guy, it don't matter where she is in that cycle - even if she is 44 years and 11 months old and been hoping for children since she was playing with dollies - he ain't getting any!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:54pm PT
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How about a lot of individuals in a lot of species making it an absolutely normally occuring genetic expression. "Normal" isn't a matter of percentages when it comes to genetic expression, it's that a trait gets expressed at all. Again, mammalian species 'normally' express homosexual behavior in a percentage of any given species. Handedness is a "normal" expression of our genome and, yes indeed, that there are left-handed people is "normal", even if a minority relative to the whole of our population.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jun 28, 2008 - 05:19pm PT
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The more research that is done into homosexuality, the more clear it becomes that homosexuality is part of the natural order not just in humans but across the other sexual species.
For those so inclined, they can view the natural order as part of God's plan. But, if so homosexuality would be part of this plan... This begs the question--as to those who condemn homosexuality, who are they who presume to question the will of God?
Good explanations are emerging as to why homosexuality continues to exist and even confers a genetic advantage. If you believe homosexuality is "unnatural" and "serves no purpose" see http://www.slate.com/id/2194232/ (for example).
The day is fast approaching when the current "Christian" conservative notions of homosexuality will be considered as absurd and antiquated as the old "Christian" conservative notions of race (i.e. the notion that black skin was the "mark of Cain).
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 28, 2008 - 05:35pm PT
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Jody,
The fact that you and Skip and many, many other men on this forum get grossed out by the thought of having sex with another man means only one thing:
You are a flaming heterosexual.
Your biological wiring was designed that way. You can choose to have sex with another man (you just grimaced, didn't you?), but you probably couldn't even get aroused...unless you had been in prison for a while. Maybe not even then.
Most of my gay friends have the same reaction to the thought of having sex with a woman--they grimace like they'd just eaten a lemon. They do this instantly and naturally; they don't have to think about it. They are biologically wired for other males.
When someone suggests I think about having sex with another female, I grimace and make the pukey face, just like you. Even intimately kissing another woman is not a thought I can entertain without being icked out. This is because I am a flaming heterosexual, too.
My younger sister, on the other hand, tried to date men for many years and found each relationship progressively more annoying and unfulfilling. And then she finally did what she told me she'd wanted to do since she was in grade school: she started dating other women. She fell in love, and had a great eight-year relationship--and that's how she discoverd she was a homosexual.
And if you think she didn't fight that realization, and the societal suicide it entails, you have a lot to learn about gays in this society.
Who in their right mind would choose to be a pariah of their society? Who would choose to cause their parents such mortification? To be ridiculed and abused by the non-gay, passed over for jobs, looked at with loathing, made the boogeyman of children, alienated and rejected and hated. Jody, do you really think sane people choose that sort of nightmare?
The only reason most people travel that path is because that is their nature. They are naturally attracted to members of their own sex, and they have been like that since early childhood. No gay I know woke up one morning and said, "Hey, I think I'll switch teams!" If anything, most homosexuals deny their true nature and are all messed up because of it for much of their lives.
Science hasn't found the gene yet, just like science has been very slow about finding the cancer gene, or the left-handed gene, or the genius gene, or the superior athlete gene--but it will eventually be found. And then, just like when Blacks and Native Americans and the Irish and Aborigine and Jews and Women finally won their Fully Human status (at least in the USA), we won't have to waste our time and energy on such petty matters as this...when the world is in such desperate need of all our help.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jun 28, 2008 - 06:29pm PT
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That was amazing, L. Cheers!
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andanother
climber
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Jun 28, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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So there has never been any sort of scientific proof that homosexuality is genetic. The same can also be said about god.
Religion keeps coming up in this argument. But it has been proven time and time again that the need for religion is little more than a mental disorder.
People make the choice to have this condition, and then try to force their mental problems on other people. And a group of people gets discriminated against simply because another group of people doesn’t want to take responsibility for their own decisions.
You have to grow up sometime, people. Might as well start now.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 28, 2008 - 07:13pm PT
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"Nobody has found a relationship between homosexuality and brain disorder of any sort. A study came out trying to claim that, but it was quickly shot down and no study that has ever been replicated has ever shown such a thing. Ditto genetic studies, though those are in a very early stage to say that there is no possibility. The question of homosexual motivation is still very open, with most reasonable minds leaning towards it being a complex learned behaviour.
Inpentrable as stone - yet again, substitute 'black' or left-handed' for 'homosexuality' and you get a statement with the exact same validity. There is no strict or clear genetic basis for race or handedness either - 'with most reasonable minds' leaning towards it being a complex genetically derived expression. Your statement above is patently false, with only bigoted, prejudicial, and unreasonable minds leaning towards homosexuality being a complex learned behavior.
I'm also sure those same 'most reasonable minds' would love to see laws against sodomy and interracial marriage back on the books as well.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 28, 2008 - 07:45pm PT
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Oh, and "brain disorder"? WTF! They also haven't found a 'brain disorder' with handedness or race either. As I said, with each succeeding characterization like that you just make yourself look more ridiculous by the post. Personally, I don't find it a brain disorder that Jody manages to find beauty all around him in his photography and only ugliness within when he sees gays - but then I do view that as a 'complex learned behavior'.
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Grant Meisenholder
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 28, 2008 - 08:12pm PT
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I once saw a French movie once that summed up my basic view on those who would try and take away another consenting adult's personal freedom because they think it is abnormal & repulsive. The character in this movie was a "flaming homosexual" but was minding his own business in a bar when 2 hardcore gay-basher types attacked him physically & verbally.
His response was perfect: "How sad for you that your lives are so vacant and void of love that you must spend your time attacking someone so insignificant as me."
I can't say I've ever seen a single naked flaming gay wedding at any crag I've been to. Or anywhere else for that matter (and I've been a lot of places). So rather than perseverate on an issue that most of us likely will ever actually come into contact with, why don't you go out climbing or find something else enjoyable to occupy your mind? You'll likely live longer if you relax and don't worry about such an insignificant issue.
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 28, 2008 - 08:53pm PT
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Oh CossieMan,
When you're up at those pearly gates arguing with Saint P about why you shouldn't be allowed in, and he'll be saying you should, God is going to come out, grab you, give you a great big bear hug, and set you up in the best heavenly mansion She's got. Mark my words.
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 28, 2008 - 09:04pm PT
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Good point, Lois. That's what I was saying earlier, too.
The gays and lesbians I know personally have all told me this inclination started at a very early age--and not a single one of them had gay parents. They weren't around homosexuals to be "influenced" by them. Just the opposite, in fact. Many of these people didn't meet other gays until later on in life--and the relief they felt at finally not being alone with their shameful secret was like a buoy to a drowning man.
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nita
climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
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Jun 28, 2008 - 09:05pm PT
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"My Daughter, and Brother are Gay, and I LOVE both of them with ALL my heart. If either of them were to get married, I would wish them all the happiness in the world."
Cosmic, thank you for those beautiful words of Love. Hope I get to meet you at the Facelift.... Cheers..nita;-)
Hi Goddess L..;-)
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 28, 2008 - 09:43pm PT
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Been on a rare and wonderful mini vacation, and have held off of posting on this one in any case.
I was raised by a gay dad, and his partner, my step-dad. Living with them from the age of 11. I can say from my own experience that gay people make fine parents. They ran in circles of also marginalized gay people, (early 70's different world) many of whom had kids from previous attempts at passing as hetero folks. Weekends were often spent with some of these people and their kids. My dad knew how he was wired from an early age, but growing up in Indiana in the 40's he had to try hard to be other than his true self.
I knew I liked girls right off the bat. My dad and his partner were very polite to the great women I brought home. The idea that we learn sexual behavior from our parents is ridiculous.
Only two things were hard about growing up in a gay family. One was the homophobia and bigotry I had to listen to as a young climber in Camp 4, and from my colleagues at the mountaineering school. The other was the fact that my dad, the couple of partners he had over the years and most everyone else in our community died by the early 90's.
What I care about now is that a gay youth of today has every chance to have normal self esteem, and with that will practice good health habits. Accepting gay partnerships in marriage is one way that our culture can embrace all members.
I hope you all have the love and sex and partnering that you desire, and do it safely!
Peace,
Peter
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 28, 2008 - 10:36pm PT
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Very lovely post, Peter. Thank you for sharing your experience.
Jody, I've worked with many gays and lesbians in many types of therapy. And most of the therapists I worked with have a thriving practice of homosexual clients, as many as hetero clients, usually.
That is one of the first avenues most turn to when they figure out what they are...at least it was. It's changing for the better now--that label of "crazy" has mostly disappeared. But many homosexuals stay in therapy, dealing with, as Peter said, devastated self-esteem issues and feelings of alienation and inferiority.
And yes, there are some gays who work through certain issues and decide that being a practicing homosexual is too difficult, or not for them for one reason or another. These people, Jody, were most likely bisexuals to begin with.
If you think about how repulsed you are by the thought of being intimate with a man, and know that others feel exactly the same when it comes to being with someone of the opposite sex, then you surely must realize that you can talk to a shrink untill you're blue in the face, but you're never going to change your sexual orientation. And that's how it is with most homosexuals.
Young boys playing with dolls and Easy-Bake Ovens when they were 4 years old, playing dress-up in mommy's clothes and hanging out at the tea parties with little girls all the time, those are not learned behaviors. They can't be "talked straight" when they wanted to be girls at that age.
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 28, 2008 - 11:00pm PT
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Hahahahaha! No, I think you're young and passionate, and very brave, really, and need to get to know some nice homosexuals as people before you judge them as a group. :-)
Life is all about change, Jody, and the more we can figure out how to ride the waves to our intended destination, as opposed to standing waist-deep in them shaking our fists and getting crushed by the surf, the better for all of us.
Did you read my email?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 28, 2008 - 11:17pm PT
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Perhaps further discussions should be deferred to a real campfire, say at the FaceLift? It probably wouldn't "solve" these questions, or change anyone's views, but may be a good way to have a civilized debate.
As with so many matters involving religion, though, it may ultimately come down to someone saying "I believe, therefore.." The only question then is the extent (if any) to which that person may promote or impose her or his beliefs on others.
As the U.S. is a liberal democracy, the general constitutional principle is that conduct is permitted, unless it adversely affects others or their rights, or is illegal. (Often the same thing.) In the long run, governments may simply opt out of the marriage business, instead simply recognizing legally binding civil unions of whatever kind, for the social stability they bring. Same legal obligations as marriage, different name. They'll leave it up to churches to provide for marriage as they seem fit, and for people to avail themselves of it as they wish. As a significant proportion of heterosexual couples aren't married, but are in stable relationships implying legal and moral commitments, that would serve them also.
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