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jogill
climber
Colorado
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"Awareness IS the brain, or is produced by the brain." They need to do the experiment, countless times if need be, till they can learn otherwise
This is a clear statement you believe awareness is not produced by the brain. So, either the brain picks up the "awareness field" like a radio signal, or there is a mysterious process of awareness creation in which the brain is at most a conspirator, but not the primary agent.
Or perhaps they can never learn "otherwise", having done the experiment "countless" times (an eternity?).
Very interesting. Please continue.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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there would seem to be no place or no bridge for conversations about so-called non-objective realities / subjectivities (and their relation to objectivities).
Is there anything bad about that? Why would the immaterial have need for a place or bridge?
But, as Largo said, the lashings will continue until morale improves, or reality is realized.
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WBraun
climber
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Spider Savage is intelligent class ....
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Yeah, I agree with Werner.
MH2: Is there anything bad about that? Why would the immaterial have need for a place or bridge?
Forget “bad.” It’s just a recognition. One can apparently not get "there" from "here." (That might be a limitation or an indictment of modernism.)
Jogill: This is a clear statement you believe awareness is not produced by the brain. So, either the brain picks up the "awareness field" like a radio signal, or there is a mysterious process of awareness creation in which the brain is at most a conspirator, but not the primary agent.
I wouldn’t say that it’s clear at all from what was written.
Awareness appears to be the base, the foundation, the ground upon which consciousness operates. I mean, it’s evident that consciousness shows shifts and distortions, but awareness always seems to transmit that there is an “I” behind or underlying it all.
As Buckaroo Banzai said: “no matter where you go, there you are.”
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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MikeL: Awareness and brain are inseparable but not the very same phenomenon
True. I agree.
JL: " . . . or is produced by the brain." They need to do the experiment, countless times if need be, till they can learn otherwise
You stop at a correlation between brain and awareness. JL goes a step further and says the brain does not produce awareness. So when the brain turns on awareness may appear but does not arise from neuronal activity.
To which I disagree.
(this stuff belongs on the Mind thread)
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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(this stuff belongs on the Mind thread)
I thought the same thing.
Awareness seems to have a different attitude depending on who is talking about it.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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John, I'm not at all saying the brain does not PRODUCE awareness. What I'm saying is several things;
First, awareness is different than any other phenomenon found in reality. What else is even slightly similar?
Second, our approach is almost always one that seeks a causal "explanation" for what we can't directly observe. The assumption being that the standard method of investigating is all that we need to "know" and understand the whole story. And that the whole story is a causal explanation. Period. Nagel's point was that it's not. Not even.
Three, causal explorations lock us into one mode of investigation, rendering one data stream. Even "magical" explanations are causal searches, swapping out physical causation for magical ones.
Four, putting the causal searches aside even for a minute is something many fight against owing to first assumptions, whereby what you are arguing about is not what you do or do not find via other investigations, but rather you're fighting for the supremacy of your first assumption: only causal investigations render "real" results, all else being speculation. So why bother?
Five, take Wittgenstein at his word and forget, for a moment, ALL efforts to seek a causal explanation and SIMPLY DESCRIBE what you discover in the experiment I put out there.
Six, the purpose of the exercise is not to nail down a non-causal explanation, or ANY explanation. It's simply to describe what you directly observe of the process. Note that what you are observing is not specifically WHAT comes up in the conscious process of doing a new task, but the specifics of the process itself, namely, now awareness interfaces with mechanically brain generated content, and how the process is altered in the bargain.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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I don't know how the guy knew how to spot talent like that but when his attention eventually panned to me, an ADD kid who always tested out as an imbecile, I started putting my life down on paper as a way to get grounded.
A largo quote. You can take the kid out of school, but you can't take the school out of the kid. John, I was more like the girl in your story. I always could test out before most kids. When I moved to Cali in second grade the school gave me placement tests. I scored very high in everything, especially reading comprehension, to the point they decided to put me into a fourth grade class. It was hell. I was actually "smarter" than those fourth grade kids but I was still a lot younger. This is when I lost all faith in the educational system and decided I was on my own. So I played along and just made the grade to pursue in secret my own education. It has been a wild ride. I can actually thank my father for the genes and the example. He was a senior research engineer for a cutting edge tech. corp. and he didn't have a college degree. So I am biased against traditional education systems and typically don't fit the mold in the brain department. The cool thing is that I never wanted to be smarter than most, even though it seemed that I was. So when I say I am not as dumb as I wish I was it is because I naturally cringe from being in the spotlight. I don't mind recognition but let's just get on with living. As I experience life I look for others of my ilk, a tribal thing, and I find them in the most unusual places, hiding in plain site. I have found the highest proportion of them among the climbers of our generation, and a lot of them are dead already. This world is not a happy place for us most times as we refuse to play the intelligence game.
That said,
That's more - if I read you right - a matter of making a crucial decision. You need a more dynamic process to see how mechanical brain and attention work in tandem. And the task has to be new to simplify the experiment, otherwise your conditioning will mechanically do all the work.
For example, try and write a poem. No matter the quality. Note the options that your brain serves up. Note how you scan those options for the one that seems (thought) or feels best as your conditioned "I" weighs the options. Then once you have few lines down, start to revise, and watch the process again.
Awareness and brain are inseparable but not the very same phenomenon. The brain can't "see" itself. It it is a machine. (Can you hear the functionalists saying, "Awareness IS the brain, or is produced by the brain." They need to do the experiment, countless times if need be, till they can learn otherwise.)
Awareness doesn't "emerge," information emerges - but this is an even trickier one to unpack.
I think you are very much a product of the institutions. That is not bad or good but perhaps why we don't really understand each other. You are a very good writer, I like your style, but you suck at being a "cowboy". A good cowboy doesn't need to hold onto the reigns even though he does.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Wayno, I have no idea whatsoever what you are saying.
But what I do see is a clear resistance to trying the exercise. Don't seem very "cowboy" to me.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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jogill:
Rather than asking the brain, one can let his heart show them what “soul” is. Ask the heart the question.
For me, soul presents itself in aesthetic raptures. Those I find in the simplest and most basic physical movements—like when I wipe-up the kitchen counter or walk across the room.
For me, soul exposes itself as psyche, as consciousness. Soul is heart. What's your flavor? Where does the salt of life and passion show up for you? Soul is muddy. Every wound generates soul.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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The truth of the matter is that I have done these experiments long ago. You have gotten yourself to the door or veil or whatever you want to call it but refuse to go through. You are too large to fit through the narrow way. Empty your cup, pass through, you can come back, but the nature of the relationship will prevent you from describing it. Not that you can't, but you won't. For ethical considerations. The gate keeper never goes through the gate.
Try as I might, I don't expect you to understand,and I don't really care if you do or not, I merely question your certitude. Now what ism would you call that?
This is fun.
Mike, I really like that last sentence.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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John, Mike, and Wayne, great posts, gentlemen. Thank you. John , I appreciate your explanation; it clarifies your position. As long as you acknowledge the necessity of some kind of brain activity to start the mysterious process resulting in the awareness spectrum I'm onboard.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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The truth of the matter is that I have done these experiments long ago.
--------
Fantastic, Wayno. Now describe the process for our gain. I understand that "you don't care," but indulge us.
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WBraun
climber
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Rather than asking the brain, one can let his heart show them what “soul” is. Ask the heart the question.
Yes, the living entity itself as the spiritual soul resides within the heart.
jgill - "I'm on board."
You're only on board as long as there is NO soul which is impossible because the real YOU is none other than atma (soul) whether you believe it or not, makes no difference.
It is an absolute fact or you wouldn't even exist period .......
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Fantastic, Wayno. Now describe the process for our gain. I understand that "you don't care," but indulge us.
O.K. but I am reluctant. Not because I fear what others might think of me but because I would rather people discover things themselves. They become happier in the process. And one of my points is that it became an ethical choice to proceed in such a way. So I won't answer your question directly but I will tell you a story instead.
It started for me in elementary school math class when I realized that I somehow knew the answers to math problems before I knew how to figure them out. At first it seemed like luck but it was too consistent. So I started to ask myself all the how, why, who, what, where, when and how much. It started a process that at first I could only consciously have glimpses of. Now I would call it an overlapping cascade effect like the currents in a flowing stream. It caught me off guard and kind of scared me but I'm sure my teacher thought I was daydreaming. It didn't make sense to me then but as I grow, it becomes clearer but at the same time the process has taught me not to say too much. Words and symbols get in the way of what seems to me to be true and beautiful and often sad.
And then I did the same thing with the sad part and realized sad is not the opposite of happy. I have learned to rely more and more on a sense of inner guidance. Life is not easy this way but I wouldn't take it any other way.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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When a human says "it's a fact". You can be sure that it is opinion
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WBraun
climber
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No human said it was fact fool..... and still remains absolute fact as it comes from far far above and beyond your tiny brain .....
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Actually Werner,
I'm a genius and you're definitely not
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Did every internet philosopher in this room get religious indoctrination as a child? You guys are a campfire of cavemen most of the time. Can we agree that climbers aren't any smarter than the rest?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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One can apparently not get "there" from "here."
So it's been said.
How deep in the valley
Must you go
To find what your footsteps
Already know?
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