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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
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HDDJ
The economic question is "what is the maximum price I can charge for this product?" The moral question is "what is the maximum good I can do with this product?" Sometimes the answers overlap.
That is an excellent point. The question then becomes, how much freedom do individuals or merchants have in determining where the overlap is?
Certainly merchants have gouged the public in times of scarcity, and shown little morality in those instances.
Did they break laws?
What laws do we have on the books for that?
What laws do we need to implement for that?
The devil is in the details.
Edit
I don't know the answers to healthcare.
I do know that it costs too much now and there is a moral argument to be made for single payer.
However, given human nature and the hypochondria of too many, combined with doctors, nurses and everyone in the system wanting more pay, more benefits, it's easy to see costs becoming unsustainable.
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HermitMaster
Social climber
my abode
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:50pm PT
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:51pm PT
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"Here is how Republican healthcare works:"
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John M
climber
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Nov 13, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
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And when they lose their homes.. Republicans will make it illegal to be homeless.
Welcome to hell…
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
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Larry posted That is an excellent point. The question then becomes, how much freedom do individuals or merchants have in determining where the overlap is?
Certainly merchants have gouged the public in times of scarcity, and shown little morality in those instances.
Did they break laws?
What laws do we have on the books for that?
What laws do we need to implement for that?
There have been (and possibly still are) laws against war profiteering in the past. The problem is when the merchants have such power in making the laws and when the lawmakers have bought into the idea that economic concepts have replaced basic morality, there's really nowhere to go.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
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Except that the data I provided showed exactly that. Employers' costs have basically flattened while employees' have continued to rise. Meanwhile, median income during the same period of time has gone down about $5,000. Corporate profits and overall business health has grown significantly over this period, apparently at great cost to the average American.
HDDJ,
One of us must be reading it wrong. The chart you posted showed the rate of change. It said health care costs are up 14% for employers, and 21% for employees currently. I believe I said that the costs were higher for both. Did I misread your chart?
John M,
I think the Republicans need to propose more than mere repeal of Obamacare. I posted in great detail the changes I would make while the Democrats and the health care providers gave us the Affordable [sic] Care Act, and don't care to repeat them yet again now. I see no point in Congress doing anything now, since neither side has the votes to do any more than repeal the "Cadillac Tax," but I agree that the Republicans owe the American people a superior alternative to what we have now.
Apogee,
I can't get my head around the idea that those providing health care shouldn't make a profit, but those providing shallow but entertaining services and goods can make as much profit as they wish. I'd rather have the best and brightest motivated to work where the rest of us value them the most.
That's also the key to answering HDDJ's question about where goods and services can produce the most good. Who gets to decide what constitutes the most good? I believe that the market, and every other human allocation mechanism, does so imperfectly, but the market does so less imperfectly than any other option.
It's getting close to my quitting time, and it's great climbing weather, so I'll sign off until Monday. Have at it.
John
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Nov 13, 2015 - 02:20pm PT
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I can't get my head around the idea that those providing health care shouldn't make a profit, but those providing shallow but entertaining services and goods can make as much profit as they wish. I'd rather have the best and brightest motivated to work where the rest of us value them the most.
The problem isn't those providing health care (doctors, nurses, or even hospitals) making a profit. The problem is the massive insurance industry that consumes billions of dollars without providing any health services.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Nov 13, 2015 - 03:06pm PT
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The war has come to the West and we learned nothing on 9/11. In Europe. they're afraid to leave their homes as swarms of "migrants" run wild.
In the end, the candidate that makes people feel safe, will win. I hope the Democrats can adapt their message accordingly. But I'm not optimistic. The "blue pill" of ideology, is very strong. As is the red one.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 05:15pm PT
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"The problem isn't those providing health care (doctors, nurses, or even hospitals) making a profit. The problem is the massive insurance industry that consumes billions of dollars without providing any health services."
August West said it better than I did, John...my bad for being unclear.
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John M
climber
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Nov 13, 2015 - 05:30pm PT
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All Werner has to do is say "Crankloon" and you dance like a puppet. So who exactly is the whacko?
He has already said he isn't necessarily talking directly about you, but about the whole mindless attitude of many people.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 13, 2015 - 05:44pm PT
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You see what you want to see, John. That's your business as an enabler.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 06:00pm PT
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John's pretty much right on, crankster...take it from someone who played that game with an infamous ST whacknut. It doesn't end, and no-one wins.
People push buttons to get a reaction. When they get a reaction, it just confirms that they will get another reaction when they do it again. Just sayin'.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Nov 13, 2015 - 06:35pm PT
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Whackjob advice taken, app.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 13, 2015 - 07:33pm PT
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I do know that it costs too much now and there is a moral argument to be made for single payer.
However, given human nature and the hypochondria of too many, combined with doctors, nurses and everyone in the system wanting more pay, more benefits, it's easy to see costs becoming unsustainable.
Actually, the way forward is pretty clear and simple: Medicare for all,perhaps phased in.
The amount of administration and paperwork with most insurance is not to be believed. The overt cost of commercial healthcare insurance runs about 25% of the healthcare premium. (For example, when you go to an insurance broker, and buy healthcare insurance, the first 4 months or so of premium is paid to the broker. Not one band-aid is brought.)
There are also covert costs, such as the cost of administration of medical groups, which can run another 20% of the remaining 75%. And other covert costs, as well.
Bottom line, only about 50% of the healthcare insurance premium dollar goes to pay for any healthcare. That's the inefficiency of the system.
Let's compare that to Medicare. Administrative expenses (depending upon what you include and how you figure it) runs from 3% to 10%.
So, if you convert people on commercial insurance to Medicare, you generate a FORTY PERCENT SURPLUS, using the worst case scenario.
On top of which, you eliminate some medical systems: Work Comp Medical (which is a BIG number), you eliminate Med Pay on auto insurance, you should be able to eliminate a lot of the VA system (but not all---there is some specialized systems worth saving)
Basically, it pretty much pays for itself.
Every doctor in America is already signed up. Every citizen is already in the system (SS#). It could be put into place tomorrow, and be running on monday.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 13, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
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I can't get my head around the idea that those providing health care shouldn't make a profit, but those providing shallow but entertaining services and goods can make as much profit as they wish. I'd rather have the best and brightest motivated to work where the rest of us value them the most.
John, you are setting up a straw argument. NO ONE is advocating that those providing health care shouldn't make a healthy profit. NO ONE.
But those providing healthcare INSURANCE are not providing HEALTH CARE!!!!
Let the "best and brightest" work on curing cancer, not on how best to separate your money from your wallet, as they are now.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Nov 13, 2015 - 07:46pm PT
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Big insurance companies need big government to insure their profits via law and regulation, but the "progressive" cure is more big government and more law and regulation.
What's that going to get you other than even more profits for big insurance,
Or a bloated bureaucracy that serves the same function and robs the system of efficiency at even bigger levels?
Who do you think will write those regulations?
K streets insurance elves wrote Obamacare.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 13, 2015 - 08:04pm PT
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Doh!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 13, 2015 - 08:17pm PT
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"K streets insurance elves wrote Obamacare."
That's totally true, TGT.
What was the Republican's suggestion?
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