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jstan
climber
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Tony:
Let us disregard for a moment that Hawking was the first or one of the very first to lead the charge regarding emissions from black holes. Forget about his actual achievements. Surely you are aware the thing most able to elevate his standing in the free for all that is science, is his holding the Lucasian professorship at Cambridge. Since you must have been aware of this, your dog in the manger charge implies you believe he was awarded that position because of his disability.
So let us hear the data you have supporting that claim.
Oh, and before I forget. Whether someone is liked or disliked is totally irrelevant. Actually saying this to yourself every morning when you wake up is a very constructive way to start the day.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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hawking is one of many scientists with an advanced, esoteric understanding of the material he's involved with. his honors have nothing to do with his philosophy, which must stand on its own merits. i hope you understand what a dog in the manger is.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
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If someone acts like a dog in the manger, they don't want other people to have or enjoy things that are useless to them.
I'm pretty sure Dr Hawking is secure enough in his own philosophy that he couldn't care less what people think about god. He was just stating what he believes is fact.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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here you go...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dog_in_the_Manger
Tony keeps us all honest, the big trout, the middle sized ones and the fry...
...I don't know what authority Tony has to do this... he's not so well written or read or distinguished in anything but his ability to post on the STForum; from which we certainly are learning his likes and dislikes...
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i'm questioning hawking the man, skept, not hawking the scientist. life brought him a tremendous disappointment and a supreme irony. i'm suggesting this is something quite basic to his outlook. he's not finding god in advanced physical cosmology because he probably doesn't want to look for one.
when a scientist gets to the point where he departs from the science and begins to draw wider conclusions about it all, he's often in strange territory. we've discussed several on this thread: fred hoyle, richard dawkins, stephen jay gould, simon conway-morris, pierre teilhard de chardin. hoyle could certainly be considered one of the hawkings of his day, and he went from atheist to some sort of grudging believer. i think such scientists bring things to the table they may not realize they're bringing. one is the imprint of their early upbringing, religious or whatever. and the other is their personality and disposition, and i don't think it's unfair to suggest that may be a factor with hawking. no one has the final word on these things.
thanks, ed--i'm going to consider that an offhanded compliment. i take as many of those as i can get. one thing the wiki article neglects to mention is that the word "cynic" comes from this ancient greek proverb, deriving from "kion", the greek word for "dog".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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God Commands Burning Humans
[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
Josiah and Human Sacrifice
At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)
He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. Finally, he returned to Jerusalem. King Josiah then issued this order to all the people: "You must celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in the Book of the Covenant." There had not been a Passover celebration like that since the time when the judges ruled in Israel, throughout all the years of the kings of Israel and Judah. This Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem during the eighteenth year of King Josiah's reign. Josiah also exterminated the mediums and psychics, the household gods, and every other kind of idol worship, both in Jerusalem and throughout the land of Judah. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD's Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)
Human Sacrifice
Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Child Sacrifice
And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.
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Jefe'
Boulder climber
Bishop
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Because you should
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WBraun
climber
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If everything was happening by chance, how can there be necessity?
By chance certain chemicals combined and formed the basic molecules.
Now where did the chemicals come from? Duh!
If everything is directed by chance, why do people send their children to school?
Let them grow up by chance.
The "Chance Theory" is a fools theory ....
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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life brought him a tremendous disappointment and a supreme irony
Apparently you are close friends with Dr Hawking that you can make a judgement such as this.
As someone who works daily with people with all sorts of disabilities, I can safely say that surprisingly few find it a tremendous disappointment. Would he prefer to be "normal"? Likely, but who's to say he would've achieved the great insights he has. There are tradeoffs for every fork in the road of life. I haven't read any reports of him being depressed or maladjusted, so I think your statement above needs some evidence before I accept it as fact. He's one of the most (if not "the most") respected mind in his field; I think life brought him a tremendous honor.
I know it's hard for the "god-fearing" to imagine life without god. It's much easier for us on the other side of the argument. Don't worry, we'll be ok. Go ahead and live your life as you see fit; live and let live.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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none of this matters...
except insofar as previous indiscretions may have led my deserving this incarnation...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Natural selection is not entirely random. Two counter examples are sexual selection and offspring selection. In both cases, the females of various species have had more impact than the males.
Careful observations of birds and other animals indicate that females prefer the slightly different. The male bird with the longer or brighter feather wins the female. If these characteristics are selected repeatedly over time we end up with drab colored females mating with flamboyantly colored and plumaged males, the male peacock being perhaps the most amazing example. Offspring selection ranges from preferential feeding patterns to outright abandonment.
Of course among humans the picture is much more complex. Human females prefer photos of macho looking guys when they are ovulating, more neutral looking guys when they're not. 1/3 of recorded societies preferred to marry their first cousins, thus concentrating certain genes. Polygyny and Polyandry both skew the gene pool. Rampagers and pillagers do as well. 14% of Eurasians contain the genes of Gengis Khan, his brothers or first cousins.
Men have invented elaborate social customs to try to ensure that they propagate their genes and care for their offspring and not someone else's. Human females have been pampering, neglecting, abandoning and now contracepting and aborting selectively as well, in an effort to have some control. And then there is artificial insemination, surrogate parenting and in the future perhaps, cloning as well.
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WBraun
climber
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Dr F -- "Evolution is fact, myths are make believe."
Yes this is true, (Evolution), and has never been denied.
Creation is also true, and has never been denied.
Only those under the spell of the illusionary energy are forced to deny ......
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Wonder
climber
WA
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"The Traditional Monkey"
It all started with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, a banana was hung on a string and a set of stairs was placed under it. Before long, a monkey went to the stairs and started to climb towards the banana. As soon as he touched the stairs, all of the other monkeys were sprayed with cold water. After a while, another monkey made an attempt with the same result - all the other monkeys were sprayed with cold water. Pretty soon, anytime another monkey tried to climb the stairs, the other monkeys tried to prevent it.
After a couple of days, the cold water was removed. One monkey was removed from the cage and replaced with a new one. The new monkey saw the banana and wanted to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attacked him. After another attempt and attack, he knew that if he tried to climb the stairs, he would be assaulted.
Next, another of the original five monkeys was removed and replaced it with a new one. The newcomer went to the stairs and was attacked. The previous newcomer took part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, a third original monkey was replaced with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth.
Every time the newest monkey took to the stairs, he was attacked. Most of the monkeys that were beating him had no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they were participating in the beating of the newest monkey.
After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys had ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approached the stairs to try for the banana.
Why not?
Because as far as they know, that's the way it's always been done around here.
I dont know why Im telling you this, you should know it by now.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Talking to dog, presumably.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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That's the coolest, Locker!
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there all, say... just taking a fast peek in here to see how you all are....
oh my.... the animal kingdom, by looking at all the pics, real fast...
:)
hey there to jan, and all...
well, back i go to look at some trip reports, i missed a lot of them lately... it takes a long time for the pics to load, too...
say, these critter pics were fast...
well, god bless...
and nite-nite to all...
:)
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Wonder
climber
WA
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This guy just loved chapatis the Tibetans would feed him. Then he would sit on my porch and eat them. No one God here, way too many to count.
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