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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Jul 23, 2012 - 11:23am PT
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In truth, this guy should be treated as an enemy combatant. If that wasn't an act of terrorism, what is?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2012 - 11:29am PT
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"The human will is the root cause of incidents like this. The tools are a footnote."
"fear...agreed. ^"
So if that's the case, why aren't mental health programs more broadly supported by the same party that supports unfettered access to any and all types of guns?
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jstan
climber
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Jul 23, 2012 - 11:46am PT
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Now, do you really think a PhD candidate in neuro-science who apparently had the desire to plan and kill random people wouldn't have found another tool to do so if guns were not available?
OK. If it were you, what tool would you have used?
You had to be able to kill many very quickly and visibly. Anything else is not satisfying.
There could be no danger to yourself.
Jeopardy here. Tic toc Tic toc.
BZZZT.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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Jstan,
Really? Use a little imagination. It isn't that hard. Failing that, do a little research of recent history. This public forum should not serve as a template for murderous ideas.
If an intelligent person wants to do great harm, they will. It's hard to accept that but it's true. There is no way to prevent it except to perhaps somehow intervene long beforehand. This particular psycho could have chosen to kill many more people that night with the tools he had but he didn't. He chose to leave the building go to his car and stop. We'll never know why as his thought processes can't be explained in rational terms.
Rules and regulations only govern those willing to follow them.
We can't live in fear. As climbers I assumed most of us understood that. We do the best we can to train and manage the known risks. Some of use use an abundance of caution and some don't but we play the same game. A loose 50 pound block may be trundled from above and crush us flat in the blink of an eye. It is the same in ordinary horizontal-life but the blocks are less frequent although just as deadly. Know your surroundings, prepare for what may come, hug your kids, and hope for the best. It's all we've got.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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Jul 23, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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He chose to leave the building go to his car and stop
And how do you know that?
Remember, one gun jammed and he could possibly be out of ammo for the others.
He supposedly had one or more guns plus ammo back at the car he was walking towards when he was apprehended.
Still no answer to Jstan's question.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
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look, Silver, gun-rights nutz routinely maintain the position that it is the person behind the gun that kills, not the gun itself...yet the same party that represents their gun interests fights tooth & nail against any & all social programs related to mental health. (If you are arguing against this latter point, you are either detached from historical political reality, or you're just being contradictory for the sake of being contradictory.)
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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I doubt this guy's intent was to kill as many people as possible. He wasn't a bomber with a political agenda or grudge ala McVeigh. He was venting rage and enacting a video game with no re-set button. He did exactly as he intended with the tools that matched the role models in his horrific fantasy. This was a shooting not a bombing.
You assume certain risks when you go climbing. The same should not need be said of a night at the movies.
Why, I want to know, can I click a simple link or read a particular article on-line and then be inundated with related spam but this guy, who was failing school for the first time in his life, could buy 6000 rounds of various ammunition, multiple weapons including an assault rifle and head to toe body armor and no one said HMMMMM? Maybe I should call this one in? HMMMM...instead we again get...
"Oh well, crisp Benjis, what the hell here ya go kid- happy hunting. Oh and nice hair".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
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Silver,
all true what you said about the NRA and NRA members
however, the NRA does not seem to represent the will of its membership when it advocates for no as in zero gun control, regarding the guns themselves
Correct me if I am wrong, but the NRA, unlike its membership, wants ALL restrictions removed, so if I want an Abrams Tank in my yard loaded and pointed at my neighbor, then that should be my constitutional right
The NRA is one of the very most high powered lobbying and campaign money giving corporations in this country
If you buck them in the least, they will label you anti American and slander your name and distort your position so that you will never hold office again
By the way, I own multiple handguns, have a CCL, and am a member of the NRA, I very much support the second amendment, but I would like to see "reasonable" additional regulations
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
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Probably with a loaded gun under their pillow.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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To answer JStan - Chlorine gas (easily made with household chemicals) and a gas mask.
But that isn't graphic, loud, or like something out of a hollywood shoot 'em up. Might even put Clorox out of business if it did happen, because DHS isn't exactly the most logical group of bureaucrats, always reacting to a prior problem instead of anticipating the next.
The stories of acts of heroism are starting to come out, which is heartening.
People will always murder, but it sure is a hell of a lot easier with a 100 round drum mag while protected with kevlar.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
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People will always murder, but it sure is a hell of a lot easier with a 100 round drum mag while protected with kevlar. Exactly.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
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The fact is, there's a certain percentage, that will take the opportunity to kill or maim for teh lulz. Something I saw quite vividly in the Army.
Got measured recently. It's 6%. They don't really care what they kill. Animals, people whatever. The only thing that prevents death on a massive scale, is Law Enforcement. When someone doesn't care about Law Enforcement you've got a problem.
Bodycount would've been way heavier if he'd been using something bigger than .223. They just go through. Don't really blow off chunks.
http://www.complex.com/rides/2012/07/video-experiment-shows-that-6-of-motorists-are-sadistic-animal-haters
This time, he was testing to see how many people would risk their own lives by swerving out onto the shoulder to kill an animal. Yes, this is roadkill science.
He did this by placing a rubber turtle, snake, or tarantula on the shoulder and watching cars as they went by. He watched 100 cars in total and found out a few interesting things:
•6% of motorists will swerve to run over an animal.
•If you ignore the tarantula, 2.8% swerve to kill.
•Nobody goes out of their way to run over a leaf.
•Fat guys in ponytails do not appreciate science; will steal your rubber snake.
•89% of the people who did swerve to kill drove SUVs.
The video has even more fun facts and entertaining tidbits. For example, you will discover exactly who it is that would intentionally run over a turtle.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 23, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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Chicago has some of the stictest gun laws that coincide with a new homicide record. SPLAIN that.?
ok, let me explain that
Chicago's more restrictive gun laws are RECENT, as in the past 20 years
It takes decades, not years, to reduce the number of handguns owned
A better example is New York City, which has had very restrictive gun laws for DECADES
And NYC has VERY LOW deaths per capita caused by handguns
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
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"Had it not been guns, it would have been.."
Ummm...this one was guns. There's a long, long list of similar tragedies related to guns, too.
If there was a similarly long list of incidences related to 'magnesium', we'd be talking about magnesium.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
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"If someone wants to kill, they will find the tools."
Then what's the preventative solution, Ron?
Here's the response from the gun-rights nutz & their primary political representation:
Regulate gun access? NOPE.
Mental health programs? NOPE. (Not if I have to pay for them.)
Regulate violence-based entertainment? NOPE.
Put them in jail? That's fine.
But that's not going to prevent anything...
Who's gonna pay for the longterm incarceration? NOT ME.
What's the preventative solution, gun-nutz?
You guys don't offer any solutions...you just throw up rationalizations & obstructions!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
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You aren't offering any solutions there, Ron. Just stating obvious challenges to any approach.
That doesn't help, and it maintains the status quo that gun-rights nutz prefer, as we await the next horrific gun-related tragedy.
Edit: "Your only solutions it to ban them."
Don't put words in my mouth, Silver. I never wrote or said that, anywhere.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
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As far as mental health,, it would have had no bearing on this guy- he was a phd student no? Whos going to slam someone like that in a rubber room? Wont happen
^^^
Clueless.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 23, 2012 - 03:18pm PT
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What's the preventative solution, gun-nutz?
Move to a planet devoid of other living things.
On Earth you mean? There is no preventative solution.
Someone mentioned when we climb we choose to do so understanding the risks.
Well, there are similiar, less frequent risks living with other people. Your choice is not to live with them. Hard to do.
Understand those risks too, accept that, plan for what you can, and move on.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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So you don't think anything should be done to try to avert similar tragedies, fear?
We should simply accept that these events are a part of living, and mitigate those risks individually?
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