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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Aug 31, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
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Exactly
DMT, agreed, running away is not cause to be "shot", but under current federal and state law, it is a cause to be tasered. Thats cause use of a taser is not considered a use of deadly force. (Don't blame me, I am not a federal judge).
Facts I want to know:
Did the officer warn Ammon prior to the use of the taser that it would be used if he did not comply with officers commands?
Was there a struggle to get him cuffed?
I have never seen a case where the suspect was silently running away, and officers, with no warnings, used a taser to stop him from running.
The tough part of Ammon's case, if he chooses to go all the way with it, is that he has to clear himself of the criminal charges, prior to a court hearing the excesive force part. If he is convicted of resisting arrest, the conviction bars him from claiming excessive force. He could plead to the BASE jumping charge and still persue the civil rights violation, but a US attorney would have to offer that deal, which is unlikely if they know he wants to pursue a civil action.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 31, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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Anders,
wasn't it actually said by the TV character, Baretta, played by Robert Blake, who ironically didn't do the time?
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jstan
climber
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
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"
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
Come on in boys, the water's fine!
Aug 31, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
Atch, imo running away in and of itself is not sufficient cause to be shot. I don't even agree its resisting arrest.
Let the rangers RUN!
DMT"
end quote
And all of this based on no information.
What's going on with you Dingus?
This is not like you.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
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Running away from a law enforcement officer is not resisting arrest like running away from a Tiger is not an action taken to avoid being eaten.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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Hey John, I don't think DMT was making a case about Ammon's situation. I think he was making a case about generalities, such as when to use a taser, and what constitutes resisting arrest.
I think that Tasers should be used more judiciously, and a part of me thinks that running away is not really resisting arrest, but another part agrees that it is.
The part of me that thinks that running away from officers shouldn't be considered resisting arrest, is the part that has been tooled. Not as some think, because I was breaking any law, but instead simply because I worked in the park for the concession, and some rangers had a hard on for us. I was pulled over for doing 3 miles over the speed limit on a down hill. My speedometer said I was hitting the speed limit exactly. I am a very straight laced person, who rarely breaks any law except maybe jaywalking in the city, and speeding, plus the occasional california stop, but the ranger said he smelled marijauna and proceeded to strip search my car. He was on a power trip. I didn't do drugs. At that time I didn't even hardly drink. Maybe a beer or two on the weekends, but never while driving. That part of me that has been abused more then once by those on power trips is the part that thinks it shouldn't be considered resisting arrest when one runs, because that gives the arresting officer even more power.
But there is a part of me that understands that our representatives of the law need some authority. I just don't know where the balance point is. I
In regards to tasers, I definitely think that someone fleeing from a non violent crime, does not warrant being tased.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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I have never seen a case where the suspect was silently running away, and officers, with no warnings, used a taser to stop him from running.
You need to read more then.
Because of this thread I read up on Tasers. Some scary incidents. Zapping kids. Zapping for over a minute and the person died. Zapping from multiple tasers at one time and the person died. Etc.
Like I said "LESS LETHAL". I think they should be treated like PR 24 (batons) a weapon, not the same class as a firearm, but one certainly capable of causing death.
And of course we're all commenting without the facts. This is the INTERNET! It's all 'mental speculation' as Werner would say.
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jstan
climber
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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Dingus:
Don't need to watch videos. I think it was here in SoCal a prostate person was tasered several
times and died. Tasers have been extensively marketted to LE and even here in SB, as quiet a
place as we are, has bought tasers.
I think the use of tasers needs to be revisited at the Federal level and standards for LEO training
developed. That and the medical risks should all have been developed before introduction.
Before.
Period.
They were not.
Having said that the circumstances surrounding Ammons arrest are unknown. Until those
circumstances are known any objections we have to tasers as a LE modality need to be discussed
entirely unrelated to Ammon's arrest.
Period.
You have a long history of thoughtful discussion here. My props.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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Tasering would not pass FDA standards for a new medical treatment, which is what it amounts to. (Electroshock...) The company that makes them claims that those who've died as a result of taser misuse - generally young, healthy, males - mostly did so because they were in a state of "excited delirium". A state not otherwise known to medical science. They were quite upset when the judicial enquiry here in effect said that tasers were much more dangerous than advertised, and should be used with considerably greater caution.
The law of arrest is quite complex, not forgetting that the word comes from the French "arretez", which means "stop". Strictly speaking, a policeman has to identify himself as such, tell a person to stop, and (probably) physically restrain the person. The minimum restraint being a symbolic hand on the shoulder. One defence is to claim that you didn't know that the person was a policeman, or that he didn't say he was arresting you. Judges and juries tend to believe the police more than the accused. The "I didn't know" defence may not have a lot of credibility if you at any point were in earshot or eyesight, and all you did was run like hell. Particularly given the context.
"Don't do the crime if you can't do the time" probably goes back to the very first criminals, in Babylon or Egypt.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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Concept, yes.
Rhyming in english, no.
Another Blake irony; he vaunted to fame as a murderer in In Cold Blood.
The famous scene of remorse with the "crying light" was a lucky accident according to Oscar winning cinematographer Conrad Hall.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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Let's just go back to the old standby.
A 12ga with an ounce of coarse rock salt.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
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I bet that, whatever happened, this thing gets dropped quietly.
Then the real fun begins...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
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since when has failing to comply with a direct order from a LEO not resisting arrest, if he has declared that you are being placed under arrest?
Not sure the case law is settled on that point, but I'm fairly certain the DA would say that running away is resisting if you know or have reason to know you are being placed under arrest.
*no comment implied on Ammon's case.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
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Fatty,
you don't have to throw water on the campfire. We're having way too much fun just wildly speculating.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Aug 31, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
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Really, facts will only get in our way...
He deserved it though, if he really was jumping while listening to John Denver and Reading Atlas shrugged, I'da shot him myself, anyone would....
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 31, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
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if he really was jumping while listening to John Denver and Reading Atlas shrugged, I'da shot him myself, anyone would....
hahaha. I would have stood by to help you reload. that is "if" you missed.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Aug 31, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
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Excited Delerium. Good name for an album.
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Blakeb
Gym climber
Southern Oregon, behind her
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Aug 31, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
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blake irony? im sure this is about someone else important and this has gone right over my head.
So, fatty, pig lover, u know everything, so hypothetically, what if someone is running away, ie.. resisting arrest and has a backpack or a boulder pad on, so a tazer shot to the torso is not feasible, if the officer decided to shoot at your neck and head since the abdomen was covered, are they then doing something illegal??
keep speculating
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Aug 31, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
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How "aimable" (not amiable...) are tasers, and what is their range? I believe that the police are taught to shoot for the torso if they shoot at all, given that they're using handguns (not very accurate at any distance), and that if they use a gun, they're shooting to kill. It would be consistent to also train them to shoot for the torso with a taser.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Aug 31, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
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For US Court federal documents you can use www.pacer.gov (public access to court electronic records).
A criminal complaint was filed by the NPS for this case that outlines the facts and legal reasons for the charges against Ammon. This is a public document.
I can't/won't get involved on this forum as far as the reasons for the arrest and tasing of Ammon, the charges he faces, or the legalization of base jumping.
The case will go through the legal process, and a Federal Judge will review evidence and arguments including legal reasoning set forth by opposing parties or litigants to come to a decision which determines rights and obligations between the parties involved.
There will be a use of force review panel for the incident (as always).
MTucker posted the Use of Force Continuum for Law Enforcement. This is similar to the NPS standard.
Jesse McGahey
Climbing Ranger
Yosemite NP
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