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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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Partly right and partly wrong about what?
Specifics please.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:43am PT
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As for an earlier question asked by someone above, Quakers and Puritans are NOT the same thing. In fact Puritans forbade Quakers from living within the limits of the territory they controlled. Some Quakers had their heads shaved and were paraded through the streets of Boston in tar and feathers and a couple of Quakers were even hanged in Boston.
Quakers have always looked to the inner light within themselves and the moral sense of their own group more than the Bible.They also did not observe sacraments saying that material things can never save the spiritual. The original version of Quakerism and that followed by most of my mother's family, simply sat in a bare church together and meditated for an hour on Sundays. Anyone who felt they had a spiritual message could stand up and declare it to the group. Women as well as men could be ministers from the earliest days.
This plus their pacifism infuriated everyone in England from Episcopalians to Puritans. Later their opposition to slavery got them persecuted by southern Baptists in America. Quakers have always stressed by the way, that actions speak louder than words.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:06am PT
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:17am PT
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With that last post, Jan earned it: the Go-B free pass. Congratulations.
[\sarcasm]
.....
Jan wrote-
"Dr. F, I think you're the one who has been duped. You take the fundamentalists way too seriously. Their movement has only existed for the past 150 years of 2000 years of Christianity..."
Really, I wish there were a way to prove it. Like there is in sports - rockclimbing, skiing, whatever. So the results are real in-your-face like.
Because I'd like to know which one of us over the last 25 years has studied religions, theologies and their psychologies more scholarly. -Because her posts are as chockfull of bias, appeasement and disinformation as I've seen anywhere among those purporting to study the subjects seriously.
So, henceforth, she gets it from me: the Go-B free pass.
.....
Fundamentalist is a euphemism (e.g., a media euphemism) for traditionalist. Wake up. Smell the coffee. (a) We're at war with fundamentalist (traditionalist) Islam right now because so many in those cultures take their scriptures literally. (b) the bulk of Christianity, as Dr. F knows and won't be fooled, down through centuries has too, that is, has taken its scriptures literally. "Jesus is God" when taken literally is fundamentalist / traditionalist. That was the majority in all pre-21st centuries since early times in Europe. Insofar as it is not any longer, it is because of this internet-driven, science-driven info age young people have been immersed in now and are exposed to now.
.....
Watch the new film, Countdown to Zero. If it happens- if militant Islamicists get hold of a rogue nuclear bomb and detonate it in New York or San Francisco, fundamentalist Muslims around the world (yes who believe literally this world is a three layer cake of heaven earth and hell) will not only praise the militants who "engineered" it but they will praise Allah believing it's what Allah wants, wanted, believing it was god gifted, god ordered to smite the infidel. Just as the Quran dictates. (Just as the Holy Bible and Torah dictate, too.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQG4oA66uzI
In this country, we still have millions believing the historical Jesus was God, was buried and resurrected on the 3rd day (not the 5th) and ascended into heaven. That is fundamentalism. That is literalism. That is traditionalism. Millions of grandmas believe it still across the Bible belt. And their grandmas and theirs before them. That is the cold hard truth and shame on those who "cover" for it. Esp those out of religious scholarship - the Huston Smiths, the John Meachams, the Karen Armstrongs.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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Although one may be a very learned scholar of religions and theologies , he may not be able to realize God.
God consciousness is not dependent on academics ......
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:40am PT
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But you do have to study (indepth and rigorously) to know something (indepth and rigorously) of the world's religious systems and to have the ability to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to cross-studies, descriptions of the many and various beliefs, their structures, etc..
And I can hardly read one of her posts without it setting off my baloney meter on some point or claim.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:49am PT
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HFCS.. Do you ever get tired of being an ass?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 13, 2010 - 01:57am PT
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John Moosie-
"HFCS.. Do you ever get tired of being an ass?"
It happens to be my field of work for the last 15 years, John Moosie, and I AM a climber. A serious one. -Which sucked me into this disinformation vortex- finally after a couple of months of just lurking. I know, you are one of those who prefer we just stay with (a) your comforting Jesus is God fundamentalism for a few more centuries and (b) the status quo of religious warring around the globe which is costing our species billions and keeping the world needlessly fractured. Is that right? Till the bomb goes off and economies and societies collapse en masse. Well, we disagree then, that is lame strategy, lame problem solving.
You know, this is growing pains for all of us- and YOU are the ass. Ass.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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LOL, lay down with pigs..
prefer we just stay with (a) your comforting Jesus is God fundamentalism for a few more centuries and (b) the status quo of religious warring around the globe which is costing our species billions and keeping the world needlessly fractured. Is that right? Till the bomb goes off and societies collapse en masse.
Couldn't be further from the truth.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:12am PT
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and I AM a climber.
Is this suppose to impress me? LOL, Are you saying that all climbers are asses??? hahaha.. man, you are one screwed up dude.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:17am PT
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Maybe re-read. Reading comprehension problems? I'm a climber. -Which is why I'm here at super topo - ass.
"Couldn't be further from the truth."
Oh, yeah, didn't you a few months back admit (confess) to believing the historical Jesus was/is God Jesus? Correct me if I'm wrong.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:19am PT
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You make all these claims about me that aren't true and you say that I am the one with reading comprehension problems? Classic.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:22am PT
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Here, I'll post it again:
"Couldn't be further from the truth."
Oh, yeah, didn't you a few months back admit (confess) to believing the historical Jesus was/is God Jesus? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Do you accept the "divinity of Jesus" doctrine? Simple question.
.....
11:25p Sorry, Tom, apologies to you. Review the post.
QT Who started with the "name calling?" ANS John Moosie.
When you don't give as good as you get, you get rolled over. That's the strategy I'm applying tonight. Different strategies for different circumstances.
.....
Yeah Moosie, still waiting for an answer, a truthful one.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:23am PT
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are we supposed to gain some sort of philosophical enlightenment from all this disrespectful name calling?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:41am PT
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HFCS.. First off, I don't lie. Is Jesus God? Yep.. In the sense that he is an aspect of God. So is Buddha and so is Krishna. Were they the fullness of God while on planet earth? Nope.. just like any child of God, they started as a child, (and I am not talking the literal sense). Of course they all started as literal children, but they also started as spiritual children, as does anyone who comes to this planet.
I already answered Dr F's questions. No I don't believe the bible is the inerrant word of God. No I don't believe that God wants us to have wars in his or her name and I also don't believe that God wants us to just role over as a pacifist.
Now answer my question.. truthfully.
Do you enjoy being an ass?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:45am PT
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Hey Tom, I have no idea if you will gain anything from the name calling, but sometimes I get tired of HFCS's high horse sarcasm. Especially when it is pointed at someone nice like Jan.
I know I know. poor excuse. I will say good night now.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 13, 2010 - 02:55am PT
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"someone nice like Jan"
Here we go again. Another male defender. Jan can handle herself. Even in this tough subject.
I take it on as a right if not a duty when I am able to expose misinformation or misleading statements where I find them - esp in my areas of interest.
You started the name-calling.
Later...
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Aug 13, 2010 - 03:03am PT
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HFCS. expose anything you want to, but when you do it in a disrespectful manner, it bothers me. You started with the sarcasm. Do you think sarcasm is treating someone with respect? You complain about name calling, but resort to sarcasm. You ride a pretty high horse. You claim to know what I believe, but you got most of it wrong. That is egotistical and is tiresome.
Edit: You are correct. Jan can defend herself, I was just using her as an example. You talk down to most anyone who disagrees with you. It makes having a conversation on this thread almost impossible.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
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Aug 13, 2010 - 03:13am PT
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I think climbers, of all people, should be able to understand that we depend upon each other; and should accord each other respect; even especially when our viewpoints, knowledge and opinions are different.
Picture yourself high on a climb with this other person, facing a difficult choice of options with no obvious solution. Do you really want to be disrespectfully rejecting the other person's contributions of thoughts and opinions?!
We are very exposed at a period in our history when even some of the oddest opinions may conceivable be proven correct; even in the face of otherwise broadly accepted viewpoints. In fact that is more likely than not.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Aug 13, 2010 - 09:52am PT
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Moosie- apparently YOU don't get it.
Jan and I have been going back n forth awhile now. Maybe you shouldn't just jump in on a conversation without knowing more of the context. Your chivalrous but bumbly posts in her defense allude to respect, not being sarcastic, etc. - well, here's Jan recently from another post-
"One then has to ask why people like fructose are intent on creating another alienated and hostile group in our society? Perhaps he secretly sees himself as a new Grand Inquisitor or is he hoping for a holy war or a crusade with him leading the charge?"
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1231613&msg=1239243#msg1239243
(1) "hoping for a holy war" (2) "seeing himself as a new Grand Inquisitor" Knowing the history of these events - well, that certainly wasn't called for.
What I posted above about the Go-B freepass and such- what got your panties in a bunch - pretty tame by the Taco standards. Repeat: pretty tame by the Taco standards.
EDIT So don't be such a pinhead goodie two shoes. Remember, too, you started the name-calling. Later...
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