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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:47pm PT
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This cosmic universe is created by the Lord for those living entities who are carried away by the illusory thought of becoming one with Him by imitation.
The three modes of material nature are for the further bewilderment of the conditioned souls. The conditioned living entity, bewildered by the illusory energy, considers himself a part of the material creation due to forgetfulness of his spiritual identity, and thus he becomes entangled in material activities life after life.
This material world is not for the purpose of the Lord Himself, but is for the conditioned souls who wanted to be controllers due to misuse of their God-gifted minute independence.
Thus the conditioned souls are subjected to repeated birth and death. ("The Status Qua") : SB 3.7
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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dark matter, exists everywhere in everything, yet is undefinable.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:58pm PT
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DMT,
Climbing rocks and bivying in a space blanket on the side of a big hill seems ridiculous to my co-workers.
Doesn't mean it aint the bees knees and the real deal to you and me though.
I'm just sayin.......tongues aint for everybody. But for some it is a true and meaningful communication with God. I've never been part of it though, and I'm sure there are tons of fakers out there.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 07:02pm PT
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DMT,
I have problems with the toungues thing, and also transubstantiation as part of Catholic dogma. But on balance, well, you know what I think.
gm
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 07:11pm PT
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The atheist class of men, they do not agree to accept that this material world is created by God. They give some reason of their own way of thinking, and most of the arguments are "perhaps like this, perhaps like this, perhaps like this." What is this nonsense, "perhaps"? Is that science? "Perhaps"? So they have no sufficient reason that there is no creator.
Perhaps = Theory
In everything, we find there is a creator. Anything you take. Take for example a table. There is a creator. Somebody has manufactured it. Or a microphone, somebody has created it. Anything you take, you have to find out some creator. And such a vast, gigantic thing, going on so nicely and punctually... The sun is rising punctually, the moon is rising punctually, the fortnight is going on, the season is coming punctually—everything. Sp
The unconditioned souls are in the spiritual world.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
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Yes
So if I go to some country and need to find some destination and instead I mental speculate how to get to where I need to go it will be time consuming and difficult if at all possible to figure out where I need to go.
No, instead I consult the proper person there in the know.
Modern science is the indirect method for understanding the truth.
It will take them another 428,000 years.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 07:33pm PT
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"Where did this spiritual world come from?"
In your dictionary there is the word "eternal"
Study that.
Now in this material world the word water is different from the actual water.
If one is dying of thirst saying the word water will not quench.
One must actually go to water.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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Īśvara (the Supreme Lord), jīva (the living entity), prakṛti (nature), eternal time and karma (activity) are all explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Out of these five, the Lord, the living entities, material nature and time are eternal.
"The manifestation of prakṛti may be temporary, but it is not false.
So in the Bhagavad-gītā the subject matter deals with the īśvara, the supreme controller, and the jīvas, the controlled living entities. Prakṛti (material nature) and time (the duration of existence of the whole universe or the manifestation of material nature) and karma (activity) are also discussed.
Prakṛti itself is constituted by three qualities: the mode of goodness, the mode of passion and the mode of ignorance.
Above these modes there is eternal time, and by a combination of these modes of nature and under the control and purview of eternal time there are activities which are called karma. These activities are being carried out from time immemorial, and we are suffering or enjoying the fruits of our activities.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 08:02pm PT
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You are free to say whatever you want.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
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I just had a late afternoon walk by the river with my honey and was musing about this thread.
I think I find myself defending Religion but there are certainly elements I don't want to stand behind.
One is the "Literalist" interpretation of scripture, and simplistic ideas of God that make "him" a despot far worse than Hilter or Pol Pot (torturing people for millions of years because they wouldn't have blind faith that somebody 2000 years ago paid their sin bill for them)
As an example how a "literalist" view might be wrong but not entirely, I got this "feeling" that conveyed information to my mind:
Notice how the Bible says God made women out of a rib of man? Sounds like a childish myth eh? But if you expand your conception to note that Men have an X and Y chromosome and women have two X chromosomes? Now the knowledge from within from the universal is limited by the limited knowledge of the individual receiving it. The ancient myths are analogies for things we weren't able to understand as tribal rubes (and who know, many of them could have been pure fantasies)
The point being, religion, like science, has its limitations.
Just as science, being proved wrong or short sighted again and again over it's history, is still an important approach to expanding our knowledge.
By the same token, because the history of Religion is tarnished by the violence and ignorance that is endemic in all humans, doesn't mean searching for the inner Truth and abiding Peace in Life isn't a critical question in our lives
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 21, 2009 - 08:41pm PT
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"The atheist class of men, they do not agree to accept that this material world is created by God."
I'm not an atheist I'm an anti-theist--big difference.
When I think of what Eastern religions like Hinduism and have done to a place like India I get sick. When you consider what a notion like reincarnation has done via the caste system to reduce human beings to virtual slaves it should make everybody sick. What passes for enlightenment in the east is really a means to control masses of people for the purpose of exploitation.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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There is no such word as hindu nor Hinduism in the Vedas.
Our eyes are imperfect to understand what is going on as you seem to see.
You say "When I think" this means you are speculating and guessing again.
But you are free to think whatever, but you do not have a solid perfect solution to the material problems of; Birth, death, disease and old age.
You are controlled by these forces and are a slave to them.
Modern science can not conquer them with out higher spiritual knowledge.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
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Paul,
There is no shortage of hideous activities done by MAN to other men, in the name of a god or otherwise.
Can you give me an example of any tribe, nation, civilization or other large social group that does NOT have a creation story (myth), or a supernatural entity as part of their culture?
It seems to me that most, if not almost all, do. Why is that?
gm
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:04pm PT
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Paul, it's true that vested powers have deeply corrupted the social system in India.
The problems in China have been just as bad under the communists who threw everything about God completely out the window.
It's a human thing. We grab at any concept and leverage to our advantage.
Peace
Karl
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:05pm PT
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It is higher spiritual knowledge that's the real illusion of the east and the source of misery for so many. Birth, death, disease, old age these are the grave and constant realities of all life. They instill fear in humanity and man turns to myth to reconcile himself to these fears. Others exploit these myths as a means of societal control. Call it what you want it's your delusion, centuries of misery have been the reward of enlightenment.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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Creation myths are everywhere and vary greatly. Which one is right/true? They can't all be right. It's a certainty some are in error. If it's possible for one to be in error then all might be in error. After all, they're only supported by the faith of the culture that produced them
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
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Feel like I'm behind the times lately on my special Topo Land. The sabbatical I have taken for months due to the death of my husband is over and work is once again a reality. I miss being right on top the discussion and I don't like the fringes. Will learn to cope and adjust. :D
That said, just read the last two pages of this. Awesome discussion. I love you guys and are proud of yo like a proud Mama. Putting out the heart, Philosophies learned, questions, doubts, absurbities you feel but honoring the others thoughts. Life, love, learning....lrl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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Some say that God does not exist because science can not find Him/Her.
There was a time when science could not see the atom. Yet the atom existed. Or did it only come into existence when science found it? haha.
There was a time when science could not prove the existence of germs? Did they only come into existence when science could prove them?
The heart coupled with the mind are the only things needed to see God, yet one must purify the mind and the heart before one can see God. In the beginning, man could see God, yet man chose to separate from God and this eventually created a veil between man and God because God respects mans free will. Since God is everywhere, then in order to respect mans free will choice to not see God, God created this veil.
It is possible to see through the veil, but one must start undoing all the untruths created from the desire to be separate from God.
Currently most men are mere children. They walk a million miles away from God by making millions of decisions that create separation from God, then expect God to appear to them the first time they get upset by the messes they made or when they get lonely. Much like they climb Everest, but only have enough energy to get to the top and not enough to safely get them down.
So why doesn't God appear immediately upon being called? One would have to understand the nature of God. Imperfection can not exist in direct connection to God, so if God appeared to an imperfect man, then God would consume all of the imperfections instantly and this could cause a man to lose his mind, as all his belief about separation would instantly be gone and he would not know who he is, because the majority, if not all of his beliefs were built on separation.
Therefore God realizes that the path back to God needed to be a gradual one.
Some here will laugh at what I have posted and say that the heart is only an organ made of blood and tissue. They think man is only made of organic tissue and do not know that man has energy centers that control his appearance and his experience. These energy centers are called Chakras. One such energy center is called the heart because it pumps energy to all the other centers, much like the physical heart does.
Earlier I posted a teaching on quantum physics. While it is true that most scientist do not currently accept what I have posted. There will come a day when they do.
I do have one question that perhaps Werner or Karl can answer. Spiritualist were the first to talk about atoms, though they did not call them this. I forget the term that they used. Do either of you know or anyone else here? Thanks.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
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roehl -- " If it's possible for one to be in error then all might be in error."
Even you don't believe that deep down. That's just poor logic and you know it.
I know Ron Kauk did the first ascent of Separate Reality.
Others from seeing Ray Jardine on it assumed he did the FA. Thus everyone else might be in error.
All speculation again. "..might be in error." is speculating again.
Are you for real?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
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The Supreme will never submit to a mere $1,000,000. If he did the you would be supreme.
Ten different rewards. Stupid. You are being controlled and at the same time trying to control God.
The material scientist is not very intelligent.
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