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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 27, 2008 - 05:50pm PT
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Whenever I think about how I should feel about the approximately six million openly gay men and women in the United States, I like to cozy up to my favorite copy of the bible and see what God has to say about it.
Man, after that - everything becomes so clear.
The problem for me is that I am a big fan of Historical Judaism, Rastafarianism, Early Gnosticism, dable in Protestantism, like to poke my toes into Lingayatism but only when I've boned up on my Javanese Hinduism.
Then I get a bit confused about which of the six major schools and movements of Hindu that I should be attending.
Never went to a Zurvanism surmon that I didn't like... which brings up a great place for getting down when on the continent: African Initiated Church - damn they can party.
Some say that Candomblé has it all wrapped up - (but don't ask a Quimbanda).
Which brings me to the most "fun" of all: Vodou - but I can't remember if I'm Dahomey or Haitian!
All in all - figuring out which belief system I should be "beliefing" in... gets so exhausting and troublesome that I just bag it all and toss my lot in w/ my favorite scroll above.
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Grant Meisenholder
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 27, 2008 - 06:26pm PT
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Rokjox (and anyone else this applies to) -
You're right; I haven't taken the time to read the full thread and I apologize for retreading old ground. And I commend you for your position that all homosexuality isn't wicked. And I don't mean to focus my invective on you personally. It's really more that your position seems to reflect those that I can't understand and I am tired of not speaking out with my viewpoint.
That said, your point seems to hinge on the perception that this rise in HIV infection is going to affect you personally or someone close to you. It may already have, I don't know. You may not know because they were too afraid of what you would say and didn't want to be subjected to your judgement. The article plainly puts forth that the epidemic appears to be limited to the gay population. As such, there is very little reason for you to be worried. There are many, many more threats to your well-being that you should be concerned about first. If you're concerned about the long-term healthcare costs of this news, don't worry, there are plenty of other non-flagrant-gay risky health behaviors that will cost many times over what a few thousand gay men will cost us.
And the cost of all the health care for everyone in the U.S. over the last century is dwarfed by what we will spend on Iraq and related costs for the last 5 years. But that's another thread entirely.
You say "The disastrous and flagrant "gay" (and mostly MALE) party scene..." is a disgrace and liability to the "general" population. Again, the only way the virus can be spread is through direct transmission of blood with a carrier. Donated blood in the U.S. is screened for all blood-borne pathogens, so don't worry about that.
I live in San Diego where we have a very active and vibrant gay community with some of the most morally upright and brightest people I have had the pleasure to know. I've never been hit on or seen a "vulgar" display of gayness (outside of the Gay Pride festival, and that is supposed to be a bit "campy"). I guess you're right though, heteros never display that type of behavior on a national level- oh wait, I forgot about Mardi Gras, Girls Gone Wild, The Hustler Channel, MTV, any major Spring Break destination... need I go on?
Gay society is just like us "regular folk." We all have a segment that we'd rather not know about and we have some we hold up as shining examples of humanity. It really seems to boil down to your perception of morality and what that's based on. And it seems to me that those who share your point of view tend to wave the Bible as the ultimate authority. I applaud that and support your right to choose what guidelines you live by. But don't try and legislate morality based on it. We have a constitution that takes a very dim view of that kind of behavior...
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2008 - 07:02pm PT
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"NEWSFLASH: Gays got married, and God didn't smite CA
More than 1,000 wildfires burn in northern California
Care to rethink your post dirtbag"
No.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2008 - 07:47pm PT
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"Masturbation makes you blind. "
I'm having trouble reading that small font.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 27, 2008 - 08:07pm PT
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this thread is going nowhere...fast.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jun 27, 2008 - 08:54pm PT
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Sis, I don't like to think about couples I know having sex, no matter how attractive they each are, let alone people doing stuff I don't do... Even though I get a giggle over their enthusiasm telling me about their enthusiasm in doing what they do, do.
It happened here, there will be setbacks, but it will, as always, work it's way backwards to the repressive east (why do I bait you guys like that?) get with it, or let it overwhelm you.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 27, 2008 - 09:26pm PT
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Clearly more in tune with your delicate christian sensibilities...
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jun 27, 2008 - 09:42pm PT
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"Are THESE the people who you want to be cops in your community? Teaching in your children's public schools classrooms?"
Rox - Those guys may very well BE policemen and teachers. How do you know they aren't? One thing I have found is that some of the most quiet are the most out there(I haven't found that through personal experience, I'd better add....but from what people have said about themselves in unguarded situations). You know the old "hot librarian" thing? Like that.
I've also heard several people who have very staid jobs where a conservative presence is required(lawyer, for instance) really get into having "hidden" quirks, like genital piercings, and...other things. They get into the fact that people see them as one way and they have a"secret."
That's why momma always said "wear clean undies! You never know when you'll get into an accident and be taken to the hospital unconscious!" I bet emergency room people have seen spome...interesting...things when they've had people come in.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 27, 2008 - 09:54pm PT
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No, Lois, I'm not missing any points here at all. You are completely wrong in almost every aspect of your last several posts. In fact, they simply point out the depth of intolerance which is the real problem. Aside from Roxjox's picture being from Krakow, Poland and the men pictured being released from an all-male prison against their will in the midst of a media event, I'd say you, Jody, and Roxjox simply dig your own holes of intolerance deeper and deeper with every post.
Hey, I personally despise religion in all it's guises - every church, synogague, and temple is pretty much a complete afront to my poor sensibilities. Seeing people congregated outside of them before or after services is especially disheartening bordering on obscene, let alone them coming to my front door prostelizing - but hey, it's their right - I deal with it. If I can manage, then you can learn to deal with open displays of affection by gays. At least they aren't knocking on your front door with the tome of all-knowing gay wisdom in their hand attempting to convert you to their 'way'.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jun 27, 2008 - 10:13pm PT
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I always love how the religious third reich goes on and on about what loathesome creatures the gays are, but it's always one of theirs that's out molesting children, going on serial killing sprees.... etc etc etc etc etc....
Boy, those queer boys sure are offensive and have no morals, unlike us the mighty god types. Yup, we sure are moral. Can I borrow your twelve year old, I'm feeling an urge.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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Jun 27, 2008 - 10:27pm PT
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Today I heard an interesting thought re gay parenting.
The fear is that if gays become parents, then the children would be warped- possibly turn out gay.
But think about it- almost every gay person was raised by heterosexuals. Perhaps man/women unions are flawed, if they produce so many gay offspring. (for the sake of argument)
Conversely, gay parenting cannot happen by accident, but requires thought, desire, planning, communication. This likely leads to better family outcomes.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 27, 2008 - 10:34pm PT
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"If you despise all religions then it would seem you are the intolerant one. Despise is a pretty strong emotion, wouldn't you say? I mean we are not talking simple dislike or distain here. You can't preach tolerance on one hand and then spew hatred (in the form of despising xyz) on the other. Once again, it would seem a case of wanting it both ways"
I think it is a perfect example of tolerance. Even though Healje says he despises religious people, he says he is willing to accept them in the community and allow them to do what they want.
Tolerance |ˈtäl(ə)rəns|
noun
1 the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with :
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Jun 27, 2008 - 10:36pm PT
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I think Healy means he despises organized religion, not religious PEOPLE per se. Healy?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 27, 2008 - 11:39pm PT
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This is the way I see it skip. Jody has said he is not for homosexual couples receiving federal benefits. I asked him on this thread and he said he was against this. Some people certainly got upset and did some name calling. I do not support that. The rest tried to explain that America is about equal treatment of everyone, so if heterosexual couples have certain benefits and rights, then so should homosexual couples.
One again the definition of Tolerance is...
Tolerance |ˈtäl(ə)rəns|
noun
1 the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with :
So when Healje says he despises religious people yet allows them to do what they want, he is demonstrating tolerance. Tolerance isn't about agreeing with each other, it is about what you do if you disagree.
Whereas Jody says he Loves Gay people, yet will not allow them equal treatment under the law. This reveals an aspect of intolerance. Certainly he isn't completely intolerant as he is friendly towards them, but that doesn't indicate complete tolerance.
..........................
I am currently reading a book on political polarization and the need to overcome it. "Common Ground" by Cal Thomas, a dedicated conservative, and Bob Beckel, a dedicated liberal. It is an interesting read. I haven't finished it, but it talks about this countries voting blocks becoming polarized on issues that appear to be black and white and the problems that arise from this. How the politicos are using these polarizations to control the people, getting the people to vote based on fear.
It is an interesting read. Especially how two people with divergent beliefs are trying to work together and are working together as they produced this book together.
Personally I don't think that polarization can be overcome with the egoic/dualistic mind that created it in the first place, it can only be overcome with the Christ mind, but that is another topic.
It is important though that we become aware of the influence of polarization.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 27, 2008 - 11:54pm PT
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Some people have brought up masturbation.
I say in you play with yourself, you're having a same sex relationship and shouldn't be eligible for social security yourself!
Now check this out
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/16020.html
Just this week, a group of Republican senators re-introduced the Federal Marriage Amendment to the Constitution, which, as we know, would ban gay marriage.
And once again, the language is pretty straightforward:
Section 1. This article may be cited as the `Marriage Protection Amendment’.
Section 2. Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman.’.
This isn’t especially surprising. Republicans are looking at the political landscape, and they’re feeling awfully discouraged. The polls look bad, the base looks depressed, and fundraising looks iffy. Rallying the far-right troops with an anti-gay amendment to the Constitution — even though it has no chance at even getting so much as a hearing — might be helpful to the conservative movement.
But the funny part is looking over the list of the 10 original sponsors. Most of the names are predictable — Brownback and Inhofe, for example — but there are two others whose names stand out: Sens. David Vitter (R-La.) and Larry Craig (R-Idaho).
Yes, two of the principal sponsors of a constitutional amendment to “protect” marriage include one far-right Republican who hired prostitutes and another far-right Republican who was arrested for soliciting gay sex an airport men’s room.
As my friend Kyle put it, these two are “not exactly the poster boys of the family values crowd or particularly upstanding examples of the supposed sanctity of the ‘union of a man and a woman.”‘
????
Peace
Karl
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 27, 2008 - 11:59pm PT
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The constitution does not define marriage as between a man and a woman. That is simply what most folks want it to say.
Jody did not say he would not support the law if it defined marriage as a relationship between either a man and a woman or a man and a man, or a woman and a woman.
He said he would be against such a law being written in the first place or the supreme court ruling that marriage should be defined as between two consenting adults. This is of course his right. Folks here are just trying to show him how this attitude means he is unwilling to give a certain group equal treatment under the law.
What is amazing to me is how many people think that telling Jody he is wrong is somehow denying Jody his rights. Good grief, that isn't denying him his rights, it is just disagreeing with him.
Now if we kicked him off of supertopo because of his beliefs, then we might be denying him something. Tolerance is disagreeing with someone yet allowing them to be.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2008 - 12:00am PT
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I guess Republicans are for state's rights until they are against it.
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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Jun 28, 2008 - 12:16am PT
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i'm so sick of republicans trying to run everyone's life, meanwhile stealing the people's money for wars. they are sanctimonious fools. a lot more people are starting to see thru the constant barrage of meaningless GOP soundbites. can't wait for November when even more are shown the door.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2008 - 12:21am PT
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Rarely do I hear Dems pontificate about how they value state's rights.
Bush v. Gore, and Gay Marriage Amendment. Prime examples of staunch conservative defenses of the principle of state's rights.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jun 28, 2008 - 12:45am PT
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"nd the liberals trying to force us to accept things that are an aversion to us is NOT trying to run OUR lives? "
No one is telling you you have to become gay, so no, they are not trying to run your life. They are just telling you that equal means EQUAL. Thankfully our government sort of understands that.
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