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richross
Trad climber
gunks,ny
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Mark Robinson,Stoney Clove,Catskill Mountains,NY mid 70's.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2009 - 12:29pm PT
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The whole mixed mania phenom I find to be more akin to aid climbing, these days, than to its Scottish ridge and gully roots. Personally, I like sticking ice tools in ice and don't care to bugger up my picks tweaking and twisting. The angry inch is lodged firmly enough in my consciuosness when my whole show is hanging there on one tip trying to find a home for the other!
Perhaps some Mixed Masters present can bring the game up to date?!?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Seems Jello really broke the mold...
Maybe a few words on the mixed matter Jeff?
from Climbing 6/2002
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I'm with Steve on mixed. I find myself glazing over when it comes up.
Maybe it's a little like my view of modern rock climbing: it's fascinating and I'm humbled by the obvious strength and technique involved, but it has broken contact with what I can physically relate to.
Or maybe it's more in that vein of ice-tools-belong-in-ice. Skiing might be a good analogy there. Hucking cliffs has a certain daredevil fascination, sure. (Not MY knees, though, thanks.) But I was raised with a racing orientation. Skiing happens with your skis on the snow. Techniques like pre-jumping a roll work to keep em there = faster. All the aerialist stuff is mildly annoying, like shoo those gymnasts back to their trampolines.
Just an old fart sayin'.
I eagerly await Jello's take on it.
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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Awesome photos Jello!
Modern mixed and aid? First time I actually paid any attention to hooking with tools was when Jared Ogden took ice tools on a rock climb in the Black Canyon I think and then "freed" some previously difficult aid in rock shoes with tools. I thought what the hell?
The next chapter for me was Steve House and Vince Anderson on Alberta last winter via a new route. Mark's or Steve's writing (can't remember which) about the climb made the most sense to me. Something like "using a tool while hooking and torquing is faster than traditional aid." My focus was on faster than "traditional aid".
Looks a lot like some of Jello's pictures. Anderson on Alberta.
Steve House photo
But once you're kitted up what does it matter what your picks are in when you are pulling? My little experience for this kind of climbing showed me that the conditons can change so quickly that the route may not even be the same the next day let alone the same difficulty. Same discussion I had heard before about "conditions" on hard mixed climbs like "Beyond Good and Evil". One climber gets a life changing experience. The next week/month/season a climber gets a autobahn offering nothing impressive on the same climb.
But isn't that alpinism? Each climb distinct to the climber and never to be repeated?
With a climb like Gordon and Tobin's on the Grand Jorasse back in the '70s, when they said "freed" we all understood if was free like in Yosemite "free". Hands, feet and heart "free". These days "freed" in an alpine environment means you look for the M grade. Letters have changed but M is just another version for "fast aid".
Andromedia Strain in Canada is a good example, old grade was V WI4 5.9 A2, the "modern" grade is V WI4 M7 and more typically done in a day.
Being one of the "old guys" who came back for seconds the first thing I needed for modern mixed was a whole new attitude which Twight slowly screwed into my psyche over a few years time. And a long lay off from hard climbing. With the enlightenment came a new set of tools made to take the abuse and not get totally trashed 1st pitch. Forget what you ever knew about swinging...now scrape and hook seems to work just fine. Saves what little ice you'll likely find and your tool. Picks get tuned differently as well and the tools can be much lighter.
Just the FNG's observations from only a couple of seasons of "modern mixed" for mortals. Others here have forgotten more than I'll ever know about the game. But I suspect many of the original crowd here that loves the swing of a bamboo piolet, would really enjoy this kind of climbing at a more moderate level given half a chance.
It certainly surprised me! Scratching and hooking your way up several long sustained pitches of M4 or M5 (easy by today's standards 5.8/5.9) is as close to alpine climbing bliss as I've ever been. On the flip side, my observation at the time, of climbing the same bit in a more conventional '70s fashion would have made the climb harder, slower and less secure. Gotta say the "fun" factor might well have gone way up too though with old techniques. We would certainly been able to "enjoy" it longer :) Time and techniques move on.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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From "Mountain Climbing", Out of Door Library, 1897
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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So, Dane, unless I missed it has nobody mentioned the axe Bill Sumner (the founder of Seattle's Swallow's Nest) made which had mercury in the head to give it more impact? I'd like to see him try that these days. You'd need to file an environmental impact statement to buy the thing. I gotta say it did 'set' nicely. I think he only made a couple of prototypes.
As an aside, Dane, is Bill still living in Alma Ata, Kazakhstan? I know it is now Almaty but I still call St Petersburg Leningrad.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Ever since ice axes were taken to the Alpine peaks, climbers have been inserting picks or shafts, hooking and torquing on rock. In my opinion it shows a decided lack of imagination not to want to see what one can do with them. I really got bored with thick ice: wanted to bring winter sport closer in line with gymnastic rock climbing. In France one winter in the early 90's, Thierry Renault and I did a really good, 10-pitch climb called Blind Faith, that has a 5-meter icy rock roof on the 4th pitch, that we used a few points of aid on. Following the roof, I checked out the potential tool placements, and could see how it could be "freed". Back in Colorado, I looked around and found Octopussy, to prove out my ideas. Anyone who does much of this kind of thing will tell you it "feels like free climbing", requiring all the body control, etc of free rock climbing. As far as pick-bashing goes, guys like Duncan, Malcolm and myself used to go whole seasons on one set of picks, taking pride in careful, precise placements on the rock.
I'm not very fond of full pitches of bolted dry rock on some modern M-climbs, though. That sort of thing seems unnaesthetic and uninspiring. I always was on the lookout for climbs like Deep Throat:
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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A select few have the vision. The rest of us follow along kicking and screaming in "blind faith" :) Thanks for the push Jello!
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Well, thanks, Dane. Why didn't you and I ever hook up for some adventure BITD? Seems like we were interested in the same stuff?
Another thing about modern mixed is that it (as has sport rock climbing) truly has openned the greatest climbs in the world to fast, fit, bold and experienced new-generation alpinists, like Steve House, Vince Anderson, Simon Anthematten, and the best of them all, Ueli Steck. Without modern mixed experience, these guys would not be doing the climbs they are. It's a whole new world of alpinism.
-Jello
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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From CLIMBING 51, nov/dec '78:
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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Jello asks: "Why didn't you and I ever hook up for some adventure BITD? Seems like we were interested in the same stuff?"
While I would have been honored BITD, that is pretty funny
One of the reasons I suspect was a conversation I had with Roskelly about Tawoche. (for those that don't know it's a huge VII, 5.11, M6)
John mentioned that you were severly kicking his ass climbing wise for the first part of the climb. He told me that he really had to dig deep playing catch up to just come close to climbing at your level. When John admits something like that I was more than impressed. That and the rocks zipping through your bat tent. We were interested in the same stuff Jeff but you actually could climb it!
That and the fact that you see this as a climb.
BITD I could manage to get up most 5.11s or a bit more and thick ice was "easy" but that thing still SCARES me!
But seriously, where you took mixed made it easy for the rest of us to follow along on more moderate terrain. As you have already pointed out it is in the alpine environment where the tools and techniques have really benefited everyone involved.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 7, 2009 - 04:00pm PT
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The farthest reach from a sure thing that a Jello could conjure up one fine frozen day. This sort of adventure has lots of smears and not just a pharaoh's beard at the lip. Jello's eye and efforts are always intriguing, purposeful and bold as love!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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From climbing number 58, January/February 1980
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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Roy,
funny you should post that article from Climbing..........I was thinking of doing the very same thing. That was a cold climb.
The continuing story after the climb was this...........
After the climbing we descended uneventfuly down to the tent and after taking off my boots I discovered I had frostbite with black toes and we still we had to ski out. Tobin and I slept in the tent and the next day we skied out to the road and Tobin drove me in my Datsund B210 the 12 hours to Bellingham, WA where I checked into the hospital and waited until my toes got better and I could return to LA. Meanwhile, on our way up to Canada before the climbing, Tobin and I had promised the outdoor club in Bellingham that on our return we would give a dual slideshow for them. Tobin on his second ascent of the Harlin Route on the Eiger with Alex Macintyre and me on my ascent of the North Face of Huntington.
But now The deal was I was in the hospital "Burns Ward" and I wasn't supposed to leave. My toes might get infected. But we had a show to give. Promises to keep..........So Tobin gets a six pack of beer and convinces the person in charge of the ward that it's OK if I leave for a couple of hours because Tobin will watch over me and everything will be OK. No one will know and my toes will be safe with Him. So Tobin wheels me down the hall in the wheel chair, out of the hospital, down three floors (I can't walk and am on pain killers), and into the B210 and we go to the auditorium .
Once there Tobin wheels me in, down and up onto the front stage. He anchors the wheel chair so I don't roll off and with my face to the audience and my back to the pictures and my mind numb with pills I proceed to give the worst slideshow of my life. Afterwards, Tobin gives his show on the Eiger and with only four pictures entertains the crowd of eager listeners...........after the show he takes me back to my bed in the hospital and no one is the wiser. We left about one week later.
That was one heck of a trip with Tobin. And I've returned many times over for more winter climbing.
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RDB
Trad climber
Iss WA
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We are so lucky to get these stories down in print. Some times I wonder if guys like Jack and Jello (and the others here) realise just how many climbers they have influenced over the years.
Super Taco is a very cool place and the community richer for all their contributions!
Tobin wrote a bit about Charlie Porter and the Burgess twin's winter attempt on Kitchner. On the Charlie Porter thread up currently one of the guys that whitnessed that attempt wrote a few words about his experience. Amazing, simply amazing experience here.
More from Kitchener via © Raphael Slawinski's web site:
http://members.shaw.ca/raphael2/index1.html
The looking down the "easier" Blanchard/Doyle ice strip.
© Raphael Slawinski
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geiger
Trad climber
Doylestown pa
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What a thread on one of the best catalogs printed. Just finished a great read, "Let My People Go - Surfing". YC story of the development of Patagonia (think clothing, not region). It really brought back the history of a lot of gear and climbing stories as well as his company philosophy.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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A timely American Alpine Two'fer from Climbing May-June 1978.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Thanks for telling that story Jack,
I remember the particular weekend in Joshua Tree when news of your climb on Kitchner with Tobin came to our little group of itinerant Southern California climbers. Dramatic stuff both then AND now; with emotional impact.
'Nice comic relief with the slideshow bit…
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