No, we are not a "Christian" nation......

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Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 9, 2014 - 07:56pm PT
So, Rosoide, you have all the answers...you are right and those of us that disagree are......what? To be disregarded? I myself learn much from those that choose to share ideas. In listening we can all bring things to heart and mind that we may not have heard, known or understood before. You are so busy putting humans in boxes and catagories. Someone you disagree with may actually have a brilliant idea in another realm of thought which is why, we need to listen and not judge. (I am reminding myself at this moment:)

I am a pragmatist. Pragmatism: "a practical approach to problems and affairs. An American movement in philosophy founded by C.S. Peirce and William James and marked by the doctrines that the meaning of conceptions is to be sought in their practical bearings, that the function of thought is to guide action, and that truth is preeminently to be tested by practical consequences of belief.

Which is one of the reasons why jesus is my best friend. What he says works. If we had time I would tell you why. Maybe at a campfire.....I've lived life and tested many of the philosophies this world has to offer. I am no koolaid drinker. "Truth is preeminently to be tested by practical consequences of belief." The consequences of my belief have been wonderful. They have saved my marriage, made me a much better person and kept me from dying in a gutter from a drug over dose at a young age among many other things. My best friend said he is the truth. I believe what he said and to the best of my ability have tried to live it and he has never let me down.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 9, 2014 - 07:58pm PT
I don't like advertising my faith in words because I find more often than not all I'm doing is practicing my piety before men, to be noticed by them. Jesus explicitly said not to do that.

Thank You John, Appreciate your candor and your levelheadedness in the face of...whatever this is...

Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 07:59pm PT
The God King was one of the first thing prehistoric tribes invented. The Shaman went along with the ruse so he didn't get his dwarf/psychotic ass thrown to the saber tooths.

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
May 9, 2014 - 08:01pm PT
impossible to respect your input Louis. get your head examined asap.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:02pm PT
So, Roside, you have all the answers...you are right and he rest of us are wrong.

how religulous!

My "best friends" are Scientis and Vitarius... the personifications of knowledge (science) and life. ;)
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
I think our first and only Born Again president worked out pretty well, no?

I can't think of one thing I would have done differently.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:10pm PT
There it is again... this time in the form of "definitive conclusion."

You're falling right into the Christian religious rhetorical trap. One doesn't need a "definitive" conclusion in any "absolute" sense - only a reasonable one.

Don't let Christians, particularly fundamentalist ones, define the conversation (or the framing).

it is impossible for anyone to be "right" or "wrong"... none of us, can ever come to a definitive conclusion..."

No. When it comes to facts...

The Christians are wrong regarding Creation.
They are wrong regarding a young earth.
They are wrong when they hold that evil exists or is caused by Original Sin.
They are wrong about the Devil being real.
They are wrong about exorcism; they are wrong about evil behaviors being caused by evil immaterial ghost-spirits.
They are wrong to hold that their god, being an intervening god, will help us out if the planet ever suffers a runaway greenhouse effect (assuming he desires to help us, of course).
Etc.

Again, this is regarding facts. If the claims are in the context of narrative (story) or mythology, well that's another matter.

If you're going to have any worthy discussion, it's useful to be clear on the context. Is this about facts? mythic narratives? reasonable certainties? absolute certainities?

Millions have come to "definitive" conclusions concerning how the world works and how life works - ones that are reasonable and therefore serviceable in decision-making, policymaking, etc..

My ancestors evolved from pond scum. Chimps and humans have a common ancestor. These are beliefs. These are conclusions, even definitive ones (though not "absolute" ones in any mathematical sense, eg) - quite reasonable ones that in terms of facts deserve support and recognition as such.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
Science doesn't deal with right or wrong, just supported or unsupported.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:27pm PT
To a heathen, God condemning and His followers condemning are one in the same, because God is removed from the equation.

When a follower chooses to believe in the condemning - they are, in fact, responsible for it.

Those who would abhor such an injustice on their fellow man choose other beliefs.

Accountability. I believe that's also a Christian tenet, no?

Not as practiced, apparently.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:33pm PT
But let's forget about After Death - an land from which no human returns.

Let's rewind to NOW.

What of the Christian belief that 6% of the population - and that's 20 million people in this country alone, and a whopping 420 million worldwide, should not be allowed to marry the person they love?

Given that a loving, intimate relationship is arguably the number one predictor of human happiness, that seems like an awful lot of human misery at the hands of Jesus and his flock to me.

Hmmmm.

That one IS a bit stickier for the followers of Jesus I think. Every Christian I've ever mentioned this to on this forum dodged this one.

Hmmmm.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 9, 2014 - 08:39pm PT
Dingus, you said, "a government that has been dominated by Christians." Really, I don't know if I can agree with that statement. How do you know if a person is a jesus follower which, I think, is what a Christian should be.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
May 9, 2014 - 08:44pm PT
The religious flavor of our government varies a bit, but one can surely say with some authority that truly secular leadership - agnostic or atheist (there really is no difference) is a rarity.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 9, 2014 - 08:46pm PT
Rosoide, I guess you didn't read my post. My faith is Not blind. Please re read and let me know what you think. Pragmatism is not blind faith.

And you all can call me lynne in your posts....I laugh when you refer to me as she and her, like I'm not here reading all this. :)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Sport climber
moving thru
May 9, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
Rosoide, " and force their beliefs on others." Something jesus never did.

Jess sayin'....:)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
My faith is Not blind.

No, your faith is blind.

Very.
WBraun

climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:52pm PT
Go away fruitcake and leave Lynn alone.

She's a beautiful soul and not worthy of your negative nonsense.

Throw your goofball crap at me instead .....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:53pm PT
Sorry, ol fluffer.

She entered this debate freely, ask her.

Why don't you pause for the cause, Sixth grader.

PS We're all beautiful souls. :)
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
May 9, 2014 - 08:54pm PT
There is nothing wrong with belief. Actions in this world are what counts, however. If your belief leads you to treating other homo sapien sapiens in a decent, respectful manner, I am all for it. But many faiths/beliefs teach this. None are superior to another.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
None are superior to another.

Really? Fundamentalist Christianity is not superior to fundamentalist Islam? Get real.

Beliefs have consequences. Only regarding religions do half of folks (ignorant or hypocritical political ones esp) give beliefs a free pass.
WBraun

climber
May 9, 2014 - 08:57pm PT
Fruitcake you're still the coward hiding in the shadows afraid ......
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