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Gene
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
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Dr. F and Paul,
You might be overreacting a tad. I'm enjoying this discussion of ideas. We may never agree, but what's wrong with that?
gm
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:34pm PT
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Dr F -- "Science has proven that the world, universe, and life on earth did not reqire God to make it happen."
No where anywhere has this been ever proven.
And .... you're a scientist?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:36pm PT
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Gene,
You think so? Perhaps.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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DMT,
LOL!
Nice rant. I'm serious.
gm
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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FACTS is what makes perfect religion.
Facts must correspond to the real truth not superstitions, beliefs or faiths neither myths.
Science must include the science of the soul to be even labeled science.
If it's imperfect it's not science.
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Gene
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:47pm PT
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What aspect of science allows you to suppose what God would or would not do?
gm
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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Dr F
Hahaha you're not a very good scientist are you?
All your so called proofs are just merely that: "a bunch assumptions you state as fact."
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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It's called "Poor fund of knowledge".
Dr F -- It's entirely beneficial to remain an atheist if one does not understand the soul and God.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
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Hey guys, I want back into the discussion here, but really want to know how to put stuff in italics.
Can somebody show me.
Italically Challenged,
Scott
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Gene
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 05:09pm PT
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[eye] babble [/eye]
eye = i
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Gene
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 05:26pm PT
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Dr F,
Going forward, I hope.
In your view, does the lack of ability to prove God with the currently available scientific tools preclude God's existence?
gm
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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Dr. F,
You have done a lot of work on this subject. Obviously you care about this stuff. I would challenge you on a couple points.
1. Based on your other posts, you seem to have an image of what God should be like. You said,
"God would have made himself known,
God would have told us the earth is round, germs cause
disease."
"God appears to do nothing when he could of done something.
"God would have made us without disease, death, suffering. He would of designed the human body to live forever."
I know these seem like good attributes, but the problem is, you, Paul , have created them based on what you feel is good and "God like." You are trying to invent what you believe to be the best thing for mankind based on your personal feelings and logic. I think you have an ingrained feeling of what you think is "fair."
I would say the real beauty is arriving at a place where you learn, via science, or faith, or personal journey, or proof, or evidence, or other route, that we(mankind) are not the sole reason for the existence of the universe. We may look at things like suffering and disease and war and say they show evidence of an unjust creator or no creator at all, but that is simply from our shallow viwepoint.
Let me know what you think of this illustration.
You are a kid at the beach. You spend hours making a killer sandcastle. A big one too. Super cool, little driftwood gate, seaweed decorations, pebble people, the whole deal.
Peole walk by, admiring your work, especially the dirty band-aid drawbridge. They marvel at the beauty and detail. Then the urge strikes you to hop up and kick it all down. Totally fun....it was your creation anyway. The joy was in the creation. And it was your baby from beginning to end.
Ah, but some people walk by just as you smash it down and, agast, say...."What a little beast!" You ruined it. It was perfect. It was beautiful!"
My point is that they are wrong in thier thinking based on their views and their limited knowledge of the big picture.
I belive, as Christ and the Bible teach, that God is truly sovreign. It is all His. From beginning to end. We don't make the rules nor can we. There is beauty in that. And for the Truth and Joy and Peace I have found because of this I am grateful.
Any thoughts?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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"Therefore you can disprove God if you can prove that he does not have the attributes that he is supposed to have. "
If you have young kids, I bet they believe you have all kinds of attributes that you perhaps don't
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 05:36pm PT
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Dr F " .... my science .."
It's not your science, and you sure are hyper sensitive.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 21, 2009 - 05:37pm PT
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Everyone has to believe in something, or so they say. Science, religion, the tooth fairy, LEB, whatever.
I believe I'll have another beer.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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There is no endurance of the changing body. That the body is changing every moment by the actions and reactions of the different cells is admitted by modern medical science; and thus growth and old age are taking place in the body. But the spirit soul exists permanently, remaining the same despite all changes of the body and the mind. That is the difference between matter and spirit. By nature, the body is ever changing, and the soul is eternal. This conclusion is established by all classes of seers of the truth, both impersonalist and personalist. Bg 2.16
The influence of the atomic soul can be spread all over a particular body. According to the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad, this atomic soul is situated in the heart of every living entity, and because the measurement of the atomic soul is beyond the power of appreciation of the material scientists, some of them assert foolishly that there is no soul. The individual atomic soul is definitely there in the heart along with the Supersoul, and thus all the energies of bodily movement are emanating from this part of the body. The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul. When the soul passes away from this position, activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases. Medical science accepts the importance of the red corpuscles, but it cannot ascertain that the source of the energy is the soul. Medical science, however, does admit that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body. Bg 2.17
I can go on forever.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:03pm PT
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Dr F
You just haven't thought very deep, yet you attack others for not having gone deep enough.
A purely mechanical universe is NOT simple philosophically. When did the universe begin? What was going on for the trillions and trillions of year before that? When and how did time begin?
It's a lot easier for a universe to emerge from a Being beyond time and to exist without the consciousness of that ultimate consciousness than for it to exist the way material science would suppose (until, at least, they started questioning time and space themselves)
Course, before modern physics, how would you know or prove that even Time wasn't real the way we see it?
DMT wrote
"Karl part of growing up is learing that the little egocentric world children construct around themselves is much larger. It also involves learning that your parents are not SUPER people. "
It's true, people cling to ideas left over from ancient times when explanation had to be simplistic and tribal. Still, on the other hand, you have capabilities and motives your kids couldn't dream of.
Peace
Karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:21pm PT
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Being embarrassed by so many theories and by contradictions of various types of philosophical speculation, they become disgusted or angry and foolishly conclude that there is no supreme cause and that everything is ultimately void.
Such people are in a diseased condition of life.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:31pm PT
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Paul or Dr. F, what do you guys think of what I laid out in my last post?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 21, 2009 - 06:40pm PT
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Nobody can become God. God is never made. God does not become. God is always God, not that one is not God, and he becomes God by some mystic yogic power.
This theory is going on ...
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