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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 26, 2008 - 11:09pm PT
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Gay-ass, oops I mean blue-ring,
You don't have to accept the behavior only tolerate it. It IS normal for 5% or whatever percent of the population that is gay. It may affect youngsters?? Like it may change them to become gay... that's weak. That like saying needle exchange programs encourage drug use.. a stupid argument.
I don't want it in my face either (well the guys anyway), but I'm not willing to deny somene's equal rights to marry.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 26, 2008 - 11:12pm PT
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that wasn't very nice, Fet.
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2008 - 12:11am PT
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" dirtbag,
I don't know that it would be a "second class union." You make an assumption there. For thousands upon thousands of years marriage means man and woman - people have that concept in their mind. You just can't change it all that easily. It would be like doing something so that from hence forth dogs meow instead of bark. It would raise a lot of eyebrows for sure and some people (lots of people) would hold that dogs "bark" - they don't meow. "
Sure it's a second class union. It's saying "We're not sure if you're good enough for marriage." Yeah, the reason might be because people are hesitant to rock the boat, but what it means is, we're going to give you this "not quite married" status. It's second class.
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 27, 2008 - 01:05am PT
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"Left handers are kinda freaks, but they don't change the healthy societal mold that has been built up."
Bluering,
In five years, if your son starts writing with his left hand...you're going to tell him he's "kind of a freak"??? Is that your idea of good parenting?
And if you really want to discuss this "healthy societal mold" you hold to such high standards, then please, let's discuss the hundreds of thousands of verified cases of child sexual abuse, child physical and emotional abuse, wife batterings and sexual abuse, girls and women rapes by fathers, brothers, uncles and male "friends", and all the other abominations we get to read about everyday in this "healthy society".
And then, like Dingus said...50% of heterosexual marriages end in d-i-v-o-r-c-e these days. And it's only 50% because so many men (and women) out there are too friggin' afraid to step out of a marriage situation that's slowly killing them emotionally--if not physically--so they resign themselves, and they cheat repeatedly, and they live in denial--like mortal enemies who treat each other with perfect smiling civility. They stay "for the children". Or the $$$$. Or the fear of being lone. Or a 100 other rationalizations.
And this is your "healthy societal mold that's been built up".
Meanwhile, homosexual couples who have been together for decades (like Sulu from Star Trek, and another dozen that I know personally), who have loved each other every bit as much as some hetero couple, and stayed together through the pistol-whippings of a "healthy society", they are ridiculed and abused and denied many of the basic rights of hetersexuals.
It's this blatant hypocrisy which I find the most disturbing about those with the greatest religious fervor, or those who claim to "really care" about people...as long as those people are having sex with the correct sexed partner.
Most disturbing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 27, 2008 - 01:33am PT
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Just checked in after a day at the river. Very proud of some fine posts which were acknowledged as such.
Thank you, a pleasure to be associated in cybespace with you.
Peace
karl
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Grant Meisenholder
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 27, 2008 - 11:43am PT
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It just will never cease to amaze me that this issue continues to hold such fascination in our "advanced" society.
Karl Rove & Co certainly know how to yank America's chain and use a completely irrelevant issue (as far as making the country strong and efficient) to distract us from the truly monumental issues threatening our country so that they can implement their own myopic and self-serving agenda.
One of the most important strengths of our form of government is "separation of church and state." This means that no vision of *anyone's* god/afterlife/whatever can be used to as a basis for our laws. It also means that people are free to practice whatever version of religion they see fit in their personal space without fear that the gov't will restrict it. Sadly, neither of those tenets are widely practiced.
War in 2 countries (oh sorry, I forgot- "Mission Accomplished!", so now it's only a police action in Iraq), hundreds of thousands of people are dead as a direct result, gas projected to be over $5/gal by the end of summer, unemployment rising, recession, inflation, global warming (or the tamer "climate change" if you prefer), the rapidly sinking dollar, travel abroad (if you can afford it) is becoming dangerous to any place with a significant population of Muslims, our president is a laughingstock worldwide, our civil liberties have been pillaged, Guantanamo & secret interrogation centers, the Geneva convention is "quaint", oil companies are enjoying obscene profits while simultaneously trying to grab as much land as they can under the guise of "increased drilling will lower gas prices" (utter B.S.).....AAAAAAAUUGHH!
But oh, never mind- just the thought of 2 same sex people committing themselves to a lifelong loving relationship is enough to make any God-fearing American quake in their boots. It'll be the end of the American Dream! Why, there'll be Chaos & Anarchy! It'll be like Ice-9 (see Vonnegut- "Cat's Cradle" for the Unread Masses); the whole world'll turn queer! There outta be a law!
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L
climber
Eating sand on the shores of Malibu...
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Jun 27, 2008 - 12:11pm PT
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Excellent, Grant!
That was going to be my next point: Don't we have more important things to focus on than who's doing whom?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 27, 2008 - 12:23pm PT
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Just joking bluering, I find it funny that someone who is against gay stuff has an online name that translates to gaysphincter.
You said my post was weak, and called me a freak, so you started it! :-)
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Jun 27, 2008 - 12:26pm PT
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Hey Bluering, how would you feel if someone told you that you had to cut your hair? added: for instance what if someone told you that you couldn't be around children, because your long hair might confuse them, that only women should have long hair.
I used to have long hair too and was once told I wouldn't be hired for a job because my hair was too long. Luckily that is about the most discrimination I have ever faced. I can't imagine what it's like for people who can't change their sex/color/sexual orientation.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jun 27, 2008 - 03:10pm PT
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If karma exists I think some people might get reincarnated as Giraffes ;D
(think rednecks)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jun 27, 2008 - 03:21pm PT
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I didn't bring up the lefty thing, I just extrapolated it a bit in a satirical manner. Since most people are right-handed, lefty's could be considered unusual or 'freakish'. Not in the 'you're a freak' sense, but in the not common sense.
Maybe it's a bad example. Kinda like long hair is a bad example. An employer does have a right to descriminate on your appearance it you're representing them. I had a few jobs that required me to maintain a 'professional' appearance.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jun 27, 2008 - 03:22pm PT
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and by sword, you mean penis.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jun 27, 2008 - 03:48pm PT
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I think the 'left handed' thing is actually a very good example. Didn't people actually used to believe that left-handed ones were somehow doing the devil's work, or something?
About the teenage prostitute - we had a similar here a few months ago. It turned out that a NYC policeman and his wife had taken this runaway in, and were turning her out as a hooker.
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Jun 27, 2008 - 03:54pm PT
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Actually in many asian countries isn't it still a social taboo to touch someone with your left hand (i.e. tibet)?
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dirtbag
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2008 - 04:09pm PT
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I'm left-handed, I practice self-love (sometimes with my left hand!), and I'm not a Christian. I'm going to hell for sure, but I'm sure looking forward to seeing some of my Supertaco friends there.
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Grant Meisenholder
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 27, 2008 - 04:09pm PT
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Rokjox-
You are an admirable troll, but not a good scientist. Ok, so HIV diagnoses have increased in the U.S. homosexual population. As the study reports, that can largely be explained by the trend that that population gets tested more often. They go on to state that another factor seems to be that the younger population (that the increase in most prevalent in) hasn't had the misfortune of having friends die of the disease.
What you fail to realize is that the virus is very weak and cannot survive outside the body for more than a few seconds. Also, the virus has mutated to a nearly non-lethal state and is continuing on in that trend. Furthermore, the only people who need to be concerned about infection are those who have unprotected sex (or share I.V. drugs) with a carrier. Do you have a secret you want to share? We won't tell, promise!
So what's your point? That we should outlaw homosexuality because people can get sick and/or die from it? What are your positions on alcohol/smoking/recreational drugs/prostitution/one night stands/overeating/undereating/steroids/travel to 3rd world countries? Or for that matter driving/flying/living in big cities/extreme sports/gun ownership/eating tomatoes/eating red meat/eating poultry/eating fish/.../living?
This is America last time I checked and you are perfectly right to your own opinions and anyone else's you care to adopt, just don't be uninformed about them. And don't go trying to force me to accept some mangled view of a religion/philosophy that has been twisted out of context from its original form by two millenia of quasi-governmental megalomaniacs who want to mold the masses for their own gain and world domination.
Jesus was all about love and forgiveness; why can't his followers get that right...?
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howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
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Jun 27, 2008 - 04:23pm PT
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Sluts exist in every sexual orientation. Why should decent gays have to explain the aberant ones any more than you or I should have to compensate for spring breakers or paris hilton? The homosexuals who want to get married have already self-selected themselves as being morally aligned with a proper marriage, why should they have to jump through any more hoops? Call it a marirage and be done with it, let's not have modern Jim Crow, sparate but equal will never be true.
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Grant Meisenholder
Trad climber
CA
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Jun 27, 2008 - 04:36pm PT
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I still don't understand why it's your problem. Or why it should be my problem.
To rebut your argument, there are plenty of people who die from illnesses that are transmitted willingly or unwittingly from random people. HIV is a small percentage of that compared to the influenza virus or hepatitis, etc.
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DJS
Trad climber
wherever my mind exists
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Jun 27, 2008 - 04:56pm PT
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Actually in many asian countries isn't it still a social taboo to touch someone with your left hand (i.e. tibet)?
It's a health/respect thing due to the fact that they do not use toilet paper and instead wash themselves with their left hand.
Edit: Oops, DMT already covered this.. I'll shut up now
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 27, 2008 - 05:46pm PT
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"Karma exists. It is alive and well. Live by the sword, die by the sword."
One in four heterosexual teen females now have one or more STDs. It's clearly retribution from God for their sin of being young and female by way of your thinking. Let's see, you can't figure out that homosexuality is a naturally expressed, genetic-based behavior in mammals and disease is an act of god - it doesn't get more fundamentalist than that.
So when you next stop and rage about 'Islamic fundamentalists' threatening the U.S. I'd suggest you take a time out and take a hard look in the mirror. That face staring back at you is just a softer, less-motivated one than the ones of those who attacked us. This administration has played on your fundamentalism and the fears it is wholly based upon to wreak more damage on our Constitution and nation's security than OBL, Ahmadinejad, or Hu Jintao together could have ever dreamed of achieving.
It is exactly this fundamentalist and jingoist mentality which has been marching the U.S. backwards on the world stage. It's your right to your views - however uneducated, obnoxious, and steeped in fear - but know they are at the very core of our current woes as a nation.
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