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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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In response to what I perceived to be unfair and highly biased comments against Wings of Steel and Richard and Mark, I decided to give them the benefit of the doubt, meet with them, and climb their route. I found their writing and responses to have the ring of truth that their detractors' ranting lacked.
In the time I spent with Richard and Mark a few years ago, I found them to be reasonable, credible, genuinely nice guys, and even [relatively] normal [for wall climbers].
I tried climbing Wings of Steel, and failed miserably. The original first pitch has far and away the most desperate hooking I have ever encountered. The rivets are a LONG way apart - it sure ain't no "rivet ladder"! - and there is super-serious ankle-breaker fall potential. It was way too scary and hard for me, so I bailed with shrivelled bollocks and my tail between my legs.
Prior to my attempt, Ammon had climbed the alternate start that Richard and Mark also climbed after their first pitch had been chopped. Using Ammon's ropes to get up - along with a fifteen-foot cheat stick! - Tom and I replaced the bolts and rivets on the first crux pitch. I can't remember if Tom replaced the rivets on the second pitch, too.
I verily believe that in the face of extreme prejudice and threats from the Yosemite Locals - including the chopping of their first pitch and the sh|tting upon of their ropes - that this motivated Mark and Richard to enter some realm of crazed insanity that allowed them to put up this crazy-sick-hard route.
More than a quarter-century later, Wings of Steel is sitting there awaiting the second ascent. I hope someone gives it a go, cuz it's HAAAAAAAARD. So quit ranting in internet forums, and go to El Cap Meadows. Grab your aiders, hooks and Scream Aids, and walk up to the base of Wings of Steel and have a look for yourself. I'd be happy to belay!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2009 - 11:52am PT
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Oh poor put upon Richard...
Your fundamental lack of forthright honesty about your routes and what went into their creation is the core of this continuing discussion.
Charles Cole and I both refer to "bolting" as anything having to do with the use of a drill while climbing. Anytime a drill is employed to allow a placement to be utilized that would otherwise not be viable, it constitutes a "hole" in the hole count that provides a clear measure of the character of a route and the quality of effort put forth by the FA team.
You don't care for the "Big Lie" that every other placement on WOS was drilled but then won't come clean about exactly how heavily you and Mark relied on the drill to make your route go.
For the record, what is the accurate hole count for WOS, Winds of Change and Ring of Fire down to the last tiny but exciting 12 pt bwanadimple. I am quite sure that you know what you left behind and how you got the job done.
Provide those three numbers and let the healing begin. How about it???
In terms of style, if you actually have gleaned some understanding of that concept by now, your efforts stand apart from even the Dawn Wall as the most heavily drilled routes ever.
Even without the dozens of enhanced hook placements, by John's estimation WOS exceeds the drilling on the Dawn.
Still only three or four enhancements of ANY SORT on WOS while Mark says otherwise? A clear misrepresentation of what went on and the core of the matter as it stands.
Come clean Lord of the Drill. How about it?
Oh, and would you have done anything differently in retrospect?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"You don't care for the "Big Lie" that every other placement on WOS was drilled but then won't come clean about exactly how heavily you and Mark relied on the drill to make your route go."
Every other placement??? Dude! What are you thinking? This is emphatically KNOTT the case. I found no evidence whatsoever of ANY enhancement on Wings of Steel, and I was specifically looking for such.
Steve, why do you ignore what Mark and Richard have clearly described above? Their hole count is listed in terms of rivets and bolts, and they report - in tremendous detail - how they made microscopic crystal-removal enhancements with a drill about six to ten times over the length of the route. I couldn't see any of these, perhaps running water has smoothed them out?
If you would like to consider those six to ten enhancements as holes, I guess you can. But I wouldn't. Why don't you give the first pitch a go at the Facelift? Quit making assumptions, and instead make observations. I couldn't climb it - maybe you can.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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RIGHT ON, Wings of Steel is back!!!!!
I love this thread, great entertainment.
Mimi is like the Terminator. She just won't stop. Pure evil I tell ya!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2009 - 12:25pm PT
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Difficuly is not the issue, Pete. How these guys dealt with the challenge posed by the climbing is front and center.
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GDavis
Trad climber
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Steve
you're a dick.
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jstan
climber
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OK. I have read everything written so far on Wings O’Steel. All six posts.
If you step back a bit it is apparent everyone here is slippin ‘n slidin on the same slippery slope, apparently put there for us long ago by Salathe. He did change the rock so that he might proceed. On the subject climb the FA party took the next step of proceeding via little dimples, a natural extension that as it turns out, is most unfortunate. Now if you get a few feet off route you see nothing and those repeating the route will be making the braided trails so profusely evident on the ground.
Is this really where we want to go?
Much of the discussion has been focused on personal feelings. Personal feelings that will disappear in just a few years when we have died. All those dimples up the rock will last a lot longer.
Which is the more important to us?
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Talking sh#t about Wings of Steel without having climbed it tells me more about the sh#t-talkers than the first ascentionists.
Steve, after all the hard routes, your legacy will be endlessly whining on supertopo about a route you hadn't even climbed. Proud dude. So take your sub-man mimi-me, climb it, and then spray. Please?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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"Even without the dozens of enhanced hook placements, by John's estimation WOS exceeds the drilling on the Dawn"
Total bullsh#t. Ask Ammon or Pete who have been on the route how many 'enhancements' hook placements of any kind they could discern or use while they were on any part of it. How about you go get on it or rap it and report back how many 'enhancements' you found desecrating the slab.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Richard,
I didn't understand why Mimi and Steve Grossman just couldn't let this go either, but I think I understand better now.
It's not about hatred, but about love and loyalty. They are a couple and if you reread the WOS threads knowing this, it makes more sense. Attack one, and the other is sure to post.
Steve got so involved in this that any defense of what you and Mark did on the wall is an implicit attack on him and Mimi cannot let that go.
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rick d
climber
tucson, az
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The problem with WOS is there is no line. It is a slab (yes, walked below it 1/2 dozen times) and does not top out as its own creation. This is why it is unrepeated for decades. IT may be hard hooking (even today state of the art) but it is not one of those "look at the feature" things most climbers stare at. Its freaking boring (and on the hotter side of the captain).
I believe Richard/Mark that the route has far less "hole count" than presumed by many in the community. I also firmly believe that the defensive strategy (now in its third decade) by esp Richard is a waste of air, paper, and web space. Richard- don't say anything else about the route until someone repeats it. And yes, Beyer (aka Tomo aka Maestri) seems to be a liar we got that.
Please, can everyone should just let this route die (and this freakin' thread). Richard, give up- ignore SG and mimi.
That being said, Growing Up should be chopped and the hangers melted into a stainless platypus or something funny.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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"but it is not one of those "look at the feature" things " "walked below it 1/2 dozen times"
Depends... Free climb much? The first two pitches definitely have features tying the pitch, and hooking together. There's a *big* difference between walking under the route and actually paying attention to it, having a rope on it, doing some of the hooking, etc. Big difference.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Give me a break. The more info that comes out about this climb, the more valid it seems. One could just as easily have run Bridwell out of town after the PO during those times.
There are plenty of climbs on El Cap whose FA parties we respect that used tons of rivets and trenched heads to get the job done.
Give it a break. It's no eyesore from anywhere and to get up that section of El Cap, it seems the minimum force was used, so what's the big deal (except by those who ASSUME inaccurate things)
Bottom line, non-insiders to the valley scene are taken to task when they step out of (perceived) line.
PEace
Karl
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rick d
climber
tucson, az
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wes-
uh that would be Scott A. for the FA of End Game- a line that cuts up Grossman's (and Parcifal) Poetry in Motion.
After hearing Bill Schmauser's tale of soloing the Aquarium in a storm I have zero interest for the rest of my days of going anywhere near that section of El Cap- in fact- I have outgrown the valley.
Free climbing- slabs? I have a strict rule of only FFA (or free FA) routes that require no more than 6 protection bolts in a full rope length. I like cracks, seams, something that takes any type of gear.
Sorry, still don't see the line and frankly don't care.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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"still don't see the line and frankly don't care."
You never have, and that's exactly my point.
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Gene
climber
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"The problem with WOS is there is no line."
A lot of piecing the line together was guesswork because in some sections the features were invisible. I remember coming down from the climb, looking at the route from the meadow and thinking “Where did we go there?!”
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I went back to the first post cause I couldn't remember what this was all about (meaning this particular WoS thread). Lo and behold, I had made the fourth repsonse to the OP:
"Downward spiral is right. How old are you? Get a life."
After reading the several hundred subsequent posts, and skiming the hundreds of posts on other threads in the intervening years, I stand by my original response.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Hey - cool beans. More eyewitness accounts that corroborate.
Thanks, guys.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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hey um-
since old threads from back in the day are popping up here today-
what ever happened witchyer gawd fearin, HERPES infected pecker?
lol
there's some irony in that too, since someone considering, ya know, if there is enough *protection*, might not see any visible evidence.
i mean, to be honest, it's also pretty funny to see YOU, championing these guys and hoping to restore your, oops, no wait, THEIR reputations...
it's kinda deja vu, right?
i mean, how many times have you had to deny and dispute what several people who claimed to be familiar with events or circumstances were saying about you?
and it kinda goes away, mostly, for awhile-
so much so that people forget about "it" (each of the many "it"s thru the years), at least to some degree.
and the people come and go, so lots of the people around become sort of unfamiliar, over time, if you just wait awhile and lay low-
but it always comes back-
like a festering sore.
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