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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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...food for thought! :)
More like a way to avoid thinking.
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go-B
climber
Cling to what is good!
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NOT EVEN Norton, but forgiven yes! :)
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Chicken soup for the soul or HotPockets for the intellect?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Pre-Christian may frost me tits, but pre-forgiven is an idea I can get behind.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I think your assumption is in error, John
I believe "we" have no problem at all with Christianity or Buddhism, etc
what we do find offensive and irritating is Christians who act "me so holy", that evangelize to anyone who will listen, etc......get this difference?
Thanks, Norton for your response. I see how my use of "self-satisfied" and "self-reliant" can mean something different from what I intended.
The heart of Christianity is very simple: All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures. Those who accept God's gift by believing in Jesus as their savior have eternal life. Those who do not are doomed.
Most people I know find these propositions offensive because they are exclusive, and because they require a humility that is not humanity's natural state.
I admit that I don't try to force this down people's throats, but that doesn't mean I think everyone is OK regardless of what they believe. Rather it reflects what I understand to be my job description, which is to tell the story, and to make disciples of those who wish to be such. Convicting people sufficiently to change isn't my job; that belongs to the Holy Spirit.
John
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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One of the worst things a parent of the 21st century could do is teach their children that Christian mythology is the truth.
As it would hobble them later in life, arguably it would be child abuse.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Rather it reflects what I understand to be my job description, which is to tell the story, and to make disciples of those who wish to be such.
ah, I see you are indeed an "evangelizing" Christian, John
your job is to tell others and make disciples, pretty clear
so let me ask, do you tell and make disciples of others who don't ask you to do so?
if so, that is what "we" object to and find so irritating
however, is you confine your evangelizing only to those who ask for it, then of course we have no problem whatsoever with your "Christianity"
edit: why do you feel such a strong need to tell others, to evangelize, John?
is the reason to affirm beyond doubt you own faith? or is it to "convert" other people so they too can experience what you experience, make them feel much better about themselves, is that it?
I don't believe in any gods, so no reason at all to do so, and I also feel no need to talk to believers about all the good things my non belief has brought me, no need to convert or evangelize, because to me such thing are personal and ought to be kept that way.....
either way you respond, it is nice just to talk with you so civilly instead of our sometimes quite different political conversations, John
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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No this is not a "Christian" Nation and most of the American's who claimed to be "Christians" are NOT.
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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The heart of Christianity is very simple: All have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is life in Jesus Christ, who died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and raised on the third day, according to the Scriptures. Those who accept God's gift by believing in Jesus as their savior have eternal life. Those who do not are doomed.
Most people I know find these propositions offensive because they are exclusive, and because they require a humility that is not humanity's natural state.
You speak of humility like it's a virtue, but where is your god's humility? Obviously your god has sinned, countless more times than any human being ever has. What with all the murder, torture, self-obsession, and spiteful jealousy. Yet somehow his sh#t don't stink? Your god is a psychopathic child, magnifying glass in hand, rendering judgement unto a colony of ants: "Love me, worship me, or BURN for all eternity!"
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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so let me ask, do you tell and make disciples of others who don't ask you to do so?
I can't make a disciple who does not wish to be such, which is why I stated it the way I did. Neither do I intentionally tell someone who doesn't want to hear, but I have a loud voice sometimes.
edit: why do you feel such a strong need to tell others, to evangelize, John?
is the reason to affirm beyond doubt you own faith? or is it to "convert" other people so they too can experience what you experience, make them feel much better about themselves, is that it?
It's a logical conclusion of my faith, Norton. I can't just sit around smugly thinking "Thank God I'm saved. Too bad about all those who don't know." I can't change those who chose not to believe, but I can do something about those who've never heard.
Unfortunately, I can't assume that everyone in this country has heard, because so many think Christianity is a set of rules and regulations. I remember one climbing partner telling me that Evangelical Christianity meant that you don't have sex before you're married. He was rather shocked when I told him I was an Evangelical Christian, and what the Christian faith entailed.
I don't like advertising my faith in words because I find more often than not all I'm doing is practicing my piety before men, to be noticed by them. Jesus explicitly said not to do that. I didn't say that much at the start of this thread, other than to agree than the US is not a Christian nation, but I offered to explain why I thought an intelligent person could believe Christian doctrine, and Wade Icey asked me to do so. Otherwise, I would have kept quiet.
Finally, I, too, appreciate the civility and respect with which you have addressed me. Don't worry about the rhetoric on the political threads. I hope you know I greatly respect your intellect, and consider your presence here one of ST's great assets.
John
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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That Christians declare all men sinners damned for eternity is humble?
OK. I'm looking at my dictionary and...
Oh wait, God declared that...the God that only Christians believe in. The followers have nothing to do with it.
Cheerist, that has got to be history's most tired dodge, as befits its most arrogant philosophy.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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I like John, too.
The religion?
I may have a few issues wit dat.
But even so, as long as Christians keep doctrine out of public policy and respect the 1st Amendment's firewall and level playing field, thas coo.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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as long as Christians keep doctrine out of public policy
This is one of the silliest pretenses of all. It just doesn't work. Just as we see every single day in just about every facet of sociopolitics.
Folks just don't want to get real about it.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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A "god" that would condemn a good person because they did not "accept" him/his son as their "savior" is not a god.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Lots of nasty gods who torture humans out there. Divine standard procedure.
The whole Christian thing gets flayed wide open when a heathen baby dies at childbirth or a pagan 5 year old gets hit by a bus.
Burn for eternity, SINNER!
We're all born dirty.
Dirty, dirty humans.
But through blood, we are cleansed.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Then there's this:
"Here's a gift"
"No thank you"
"BURN, SINNER!!!!!!!!"
I could go on
and on
But you get the idea.
A system based on reward/punishment needs to go away.
Choice theory, baby. The way forward.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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I have no problem with other peoples' belief systems if they make them happy and lead them to productive lives.
If that system threatens people that don't comply with eternal damnation, it has some serious issues with it's credibility.
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microcam
Trad climber
San Juan Capistrano. California
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"There is a way which seems right to a man but in the end it leads to death." A proverb written and recorded along time ago but just as true today.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I think this may cover the consensus opinion:
John
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Such is the power of Faith - a brilliant invention itself if you think about it - but not too much.
One word: Koolaid.
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