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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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"That was just an example of a justice system without justice. "
Which is all fine and dandy except the facts and reality of that case don't support your point.
And YOU DON'T CARE!
Ha-haaa!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apparently the minister/priest, a 65 year old grandfather, attacked the murderer with a butter knife, and was able to hinder him and save a number of lives. He continued to interfere even after being shot in the leg, but was in the end one of the dead. That's heroism.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 8, 2012 - 03:45pm PT
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Requirement for ST Forum Participation: Thick Skin
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Ron cried my skin is like elephant leather.
That's why you're always screaming "cheap shot" and complaining about how you get ganged up on but never seem to want to back things you say up with actual information?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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As all religions at least nominally espouse non-violence (including Sikhism), and as this happened in a place of worship, it would be inconsistent if not hypocritical for the minister to be armed during services. If they were aware of some real threat, perhaps the police would be notified, or a guard posted outside.
Armed ministers and congregants in a place of worship are about as oxymoronic as destroying a village to save it. Noting that in reality Sikhism seems no more pacific than other faiths.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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MH please stay on topic. This thread has nothing to do with the actual massacre. :-)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Well, there is that bit about turning the other cheek... Not sure if that's part of Sikhism, but rumour has it that it is in other religions.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Ron said: "That was just an example of a justice system without justice. and the LUDICROUS extremes we have taken things. Wonder why insurance is mandatory and so stinkin HIGH? Wonder why medical costs are that high? Was my point anyhow. I know nothing of the macdonalds case, other than what was on the news years ago. But that actually has nothing to do with the topic other than someone NITPCIKING. "
Not sure it's nitpicking as you used it as an example to support a conclusion. I see Rush Limbaugh do that all day long. Makes a fortune doing it too. He takes a false premise (in incorrect assumption or outright lie) and builds a whole show on it. In the end, he's full of crap but gets of bunch of otherwise intelligent folks who missed the original lie he used to build his case on, to believe a falsehood. If you want to start pulling out examples to support a conclusion or point you should at least have some familiarity with the cases you are citing. Or if you don't, don't call it nitpicking when you get called on it. [/nitpicking] Learn to say "Oh really, I didn't know that, huh, we'll I was wrong".
Regards:
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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"it still represents the point of ridiculous lawsuits in this country that have ended up costing us ALL. "
No, it doesn't Ron. That's the point.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Couchmaster- Very well put sir! Articulate and succinct.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Since no one was willing to do the homework, I did. Here are some representative reports from some reputable sources.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence for the full listing of global statistics by country. Also for the following findings / commentary.
Gun violence defined literally means the use of a firearm to threaten or inflict violence or harm. Gun violence may be broadly defined as a category of violence and crimecommitted with the use of a firearm; it may[1] or may not[2][3] include actions ruled as self-defense, actions for law enforcement, or the safe lawful use of firearms for sport, hunting, and target practice. Gun violence encompasses intentional crime characterized as homicide (although not all homicide is automatically a crime) and assault with a deadly weapon, as well as unintentional injury and death resulting from the misuse of firearms, sometimes by children and adolescents.[4][dead link] Gun violence statistics also may include self-inflicted gunshot wounds (both suicide, attempted suicide and suicide/homicide combinations sometimes seen within families).[5]
The phrase "gun crime" is consistently used by both gun-control and gun-rights policy advocates, with differing emphases: the former group advocates reducing gun violence by enacting and enforcing regulations on guns, gun owners, and the gun industry, while the latter group advocates education on how to be a responsible gun owner.[6][7]
Levels of gun violence vary greatly across the world, with very high rates in Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico, South Africa, Colombia, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, andJamaica, as well as high levels in Russia, The Phillipines, Thailand, and some other underdeveloped countries, Levels of gun violence are low in Singapore, Japan, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and many other countries.[8] The United States has the highest rate of gun related injuries (not deaths per capita) among developed countries, though they also have the highest rate of gun ownership and highest rate of officers.[9]
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The following report can be found from http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvintl.html#intl
Is Gun Ownership Correlated with Violent Deaths?
In 1993 a Swiss professor, Martin Killias, published a study of 18 countries concerning gun ownership, homicide and suicide. He in part concluded there was a weak correlation between total homicide and gun ownership. For a partial criticism of his study see Dunblane Misled where using the countries studied by Killias, these researchers found a much stronger correlation between firearm homicides and car ownership. More seriously, when the United States was included in the Killias study, a stronger correlation between total homicide and gun ownership was found. When two countries were excluded, the U.S. (high gun ownership, high murder rate) and Northern Ireland (low gun ownership, high murder rate) the correlation was marginally significant. Gary Kleck writes, "Contrary to his claim that 'the overall correlation is not contingent upon a few countries with extreme scores on the dependent and independent variable', reanalysis of the data reveals that if one excludes only the United States from the sample there is no significant association between gun ownership and the total homicide rate." (Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, p 253. Walter de Gruyter, Inc. New York, 1997.) Kleck concludes that "the homicide-guns study was not international at all, but merely reflected the unique status of the United States as a high-gun ownership/high-violence nation...Since the positive association Killias observed was entirely dependent on the U.S. case, where self-defense is a common reason for gun ownership, this supports the conclusion that the association was attributable to the impact of the homicide rates on gun levels."
Using homicide and suicide data from a larger sample of countries, 35, (International Journal of Epidemiology 1998:27:216), Kleck found "no significant (at the 5% level) association between gun ownership levels and the total homicide rate in the largest sample of nations available to study this topic. (Associations with the total suicide rate were even weaker.)" (Targeting Guns, p 254.)
A more recent study, by Killias, concludes "no significant correlations with toal suicide or homicide rates were found, leaving open the question of possible substitution effects."
This article by Rutgers University professor Dr. Goertzel offers sound advice regarding statistical analysis: "When presented with an econometric model, consumers should insist on evidence that it can predict trends in data other than the data used to create it. Models that fail this test are junk science, no matter how complex the analysis."
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Sadly, no clear conclusion is my way of reading these and some other reports.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Every time I bump into someone open carrying I feel a tad peculiar. Can't say I appreciate it, perhaps as I tend to be unarmed.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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If there's any truth to the stories in the Christian bible, then Yeshua (if he existed) turned the other cheek or refrained from defending himself on several occasions. Noting that as a supposedly omnipotent deity, he could at any time have defended himself without weapons of any kind.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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You can and looks like this site will be arguing on guns or no guns, mental health or no funding where were/are the $$$. Where was God or lack of? The scriptures but which one’s.
Has anyone come up what motivated this guy? I would not be surprised if the FBI changes it to a hate crime to protect the interests of these guys.
The next few months and whoever wins and takes office in 2013 our problems will not go away.
Calling it a terrorist act is a little tricky or the wording since there is no fine print on the bottom of the page. They are still trying to fill it in after 40 years of finally defining it.
In totalitarian states this kind of violence is made impossible simply as a matter of state prerogative [to do as one pleases]. Americans by contrast accept a degree of disorder as the implicit price that we pay for our individual liberties. If we fall prey to the illusion of enemy forces all around us or just one enemy which this shooter's thoughts [I am assuming] since all his problems; losing a girlfriend, maybe losing a house, cannot find a job had to do with the government’s lack of enforcement on immigration, Muslims or what ever his government[the enemy] is/was not doing the correct actions to his way of thinking.
It is those guys in that cartoon and by the way that is over 40 years old when Moral Majority took control of our political system long gone but have 50 more different organizations and people with the same goals and agenda, we run the risk of governmental overreaction and “ temporary” abrogations of our civil rights.
Our government already has because 0f 9/11 taken “temporary” to another level and we need to make sure there are checks and balances before all of our rights are taken away and we destroy ourselves.
Seems to me we already are in the process. Just have to wait and look maybe by the end of this week or next or a month from now there will another, and another and another and………………… until we say to ourselves “open your eyes and wake up”.
When we do wake up what will we be doing: arguing on guns or no guns, mental health or no funding where were/are the $$$. Where was God or lack of? The scriptures but which one’s.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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He also failed to mention that the rights in the Constitution came from god when he helped draft both the Constitution AND the subsequent Bill of Rights.
The Constitution is the blue print of how our federal government is to be organized and ran. The Bill of Rights were added because of a fear that the Constitution gave the federal government too much power. Nothing to do with God but a manmade construct. Though article VII does say "in the year of our Lord". I know, SCARY!!! (BTW Article VI does say that no religious test can be required as a qualification to serve in office)
Jefferson very clearly does say In the Declaration of Independence that our rights come from the Creator and not from government (as well as other mentions of God). The government is just a vehicle to "secure" our rights (i.e. prevent someone from taking them from us).
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Remember the rights you once had that you don't have anymore?
care to name a number of these rights I once had and now have lost?
not doubting you, just can't remember
thanks
You know what's funny? When the Patriot Act was first signed, the left would scream about all the rights they lost and were going to lose and the right would respond as above. Now the table is turned and each side has switched arguments almost to the word.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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yep
still waiting to hear a list of the rights I lost since 1/20/09
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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So on the topic of "god given rights", Thomas Jefferson, the Constitution, evangelical clap-trap and the "truth".
"endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights" is from the Declaration of Independence, 1776. Indeed, largely if not entirely written by Jefferson. A document with propaganda intent, not for governance.
The Constitution, 1787, no propaganda about it, a blueprint for governing a country of various religions and national origins.
The ONLY statement of philosophy is in the Preamble. Short and sweet:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. The only mention of God is in the.....wait.....there's no mention of God anywhere in the Constitution. Anywhere. Go ahead, do your own search. Not even in the 1st Amendment!
So the current evangelical clap-trap (not coming from ALL evangelicals, only the deranged few) from David Barton is debunked here.
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/08/157754542/the-most-influential-evangelist-youve-never-heard-of
When you read it, you'll see that many of his "Jefferson said this" claims are blatant falsehoods.
The ONLY claims you can make about gun rights from our "founding fathers" is in the 2nd Amendment. And it didn't come from God.
The Devil perhaps..........
Edit:
HighDesertDJ
indeed, didn't mean to steal your thunder, only to amplify it a bit for the hard of hearing.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Covered that 2 pages ago but I appreciate the link to some actual information (something that Chaz and Ron have a tough time bothering with).
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