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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 15, 2010 - 02:20pm PT
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Jan wrote-
"...the gamma ray model of how the brain works..."
Gamma wave or gamma ray? ;)
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rrrADAM
climber
LBMF
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Jul 15, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
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In experiments where 25% was random chance, thousands of experiments (he's big on meta-analysis) showed corelation with psi phenomena ranging from 34-39%.
Some exerpts from God: The Failed hypothesis (pages 92-93) regarding the statistical analysis of psychic phenomena that seem appropriate here:
Parapsychologists argue that they should be held to the same standard of statistical significance as medical science, where claimed positive effects of, say, a new drug, are published when the statistical significance ("P value") IS 5% (p=0.05) or lower...
. . .
Contrast this with the standard in the field of research [of] ... elementary particle physics. There the standard of P value for publication is 0.01% (P< 0.0001).
. . .
A number of studies have claimed to be able to overcome the lack of statistical significance of single experiments by using a technique called "metanalysis", in which the results of many experiments are combined. This procedure is highly questionable. I am unaware of any extraordinary discovery in all of science that was made using metanalysis. If several, independant experiments do not find significanrt evidence for a phenomenon, we cannot expect a purely mathematical manipulation of the combined data to suddenly produce a major discovery.
. . .
In any other field, such an unbroken history of negative resuilts would have long ago resulted in the claims being discarded. At the minimum, psychic experiments cannot be used to show that humans possess and special powers of the mind that exceed the physical limitations of inanimate matter.
In other words, meta anlysis can be used for data mining:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta-analysis#Weaknesses
Meta-analysis can never follow the rules of hard science, for example being double-blind, controlled, or proposing a way to falsify the theory in question....
A weakness of the method is that sources of bias are not controlled by the method.
. . .
Another weakness of the method is the heavy reliance on published studies, which may create exaggerated outcomes, as it is very hard to publish studies that show no significant results. For any given research area, one cannot know how many studies have been conducted but never reported and the results filed away.[10]
This file drawer problem results in the distribution of effect sizes that are biased, skewed or completely cut off, creating a serious base rate fallacy, in which the significance of the published studies is overestimated. For example, if there were fifty tests, and only ten got results, then the real outcome is only 20% as significant as it appears, except that the other 80% were not submitted for publishing, or thrown out by publishers as uninteresting. This should be seriously considered when interpreting the outcomes of a meta-analysis.[10][11]
. . .
The most severe weakness and abuse of meta-analysis often occurs when the person or persons doing the meta-analysis have an economic, social,or political agenda such as the passage or defeat of legislation. Those persons with these types of agenda have a high likelihood to abuse meta-analysis due to personal bias. For example, researchers favorable to the author's agenda are likely to have their studies "cherry picked" while those not favorable will be ignored or labeled as "not credible". In addition, the favored authors may themselves be biased or paid to produce results that support their overall political, social, or economic goals in ways such as selecting small favorable data sets and not incorporating larger unfavorable data sets.
If a meta-analysis is conducted by an individual or organization with a bias or predetermined desired outcome, it should be treated as highly suspect or having a high likelihood of being "junk science". From an integrity perspective, researchers with a bias should avoid meta-analysis and use a less abuse-prone (or independent) form of research.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 15, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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Why do so many people believe in God? (Serious Question?)
I know us Christians do believe in a real; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!
What do the rest of you believe in?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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rrrADAM-
It would be interesting to see the copyright on that quotation as it is almost word for word similar to what appeared in The Conscious Universe with the opposite spin. Who was trying to refute who first?
Meanwhile you realize that if you don't accept meta analysis and similar techniques, you've basically said that any research on human beings is useless unless it is measuring a physiological response? Of course there are some, probably many, from the hard sciences who do say this.
Interesting also, that psychic research, like acupuncture, is being experimented with by industry, intelligence agencies, and the military, even though it is a pariah to academia. There wouldn't be 40 year old ongoing research by these agencies if they weren't getting something useful out of it. Likewise the police departments who employ psychics to find both missing and dead. Incidentally, these groups are credited by Radin with operating at level 2 of the 4 stage paradigm shift.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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Jan
Psychics generally are last resort for finding missing and dead for LEO departments and generally not held in high regard.
I can tell you some really bizarre claims from some of these so called psychics.
On one incident a psychic sent us to an absolutely stupid spot. I believe that psychic swindled the family for money.
But ... on one other particular incident here, the psychic was right on the mark .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
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Werner-
That's the whole frustration with anything not connected to material data. It's not 100% accurate or reproducible. I understand why scientists say it doesn't meet their criteria for hard empirical science. I just think they're being closed minded when they say that therefore there is nothing to it.
I am reluctant to come to this conclusion as it means that both sides then retreat to their own disciplines and no exchange takes place. It's a rare thing in my experience, for religious people, people interested in unusual but hard to measure human experiences, and hard core scientists to come together even to discuss their differences.
Even though there have been recent calls to kill the thread (ahem Tony!), I think this discussion, though it doesn't seem to change any minds, is very useful at least for defining the parameters.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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i do not bother with trivialities.
god is such.
i exist above the devil and the details.
i've big horizons to tame. im busy eluding love.
and extremely busy saying goodbye.
"i don't want to be above,
i wanna be amongst the things i love." - mother hips.
you get hung up on god, as have prior, when the fears of the unknown overwhelm, and you feel desperation. those of stout poise eventually recoginize the error, and those of stout poise sometimes remain in their cage.
we are all humans trying to make sense of a dollar when we're only given 66 cents. how you spend the remaining 44 is your choice.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
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Looks like God created the chicken first!
http://www.dailytech.com/Genetic+Study+Solves+Which+Came+First++the+Chicken+or+the+Egg/article19040.htm
Edit:
Genesis 1:24, And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds—livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds (CHICKENS) and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2010 - 09:53pm PT
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Jan
There are a lot lurkers here too who would never really venture into a thread of this sort due to the general acidic atmosphere created by too many juvenile individuals on this site.
The idea here is really not to change anyone's mind, but to show and exchange information.
Generally ones mind can not change until an actual experience has happened.
Openness seems more of a useful goal in a thread of this sort.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Jul 15, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
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Radin goes through a number of possible explanations (including the possibility that there are physical senses involved that we have yet to discover) and concludes that we simply don't know yet.
He does have a chapter at the end of the book discussing gambling (he worked out of the University of Nevada), but I haven't got there. I'll let you know when I do.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 15, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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there comes a redeemer,
and he slowly to, fades away.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 15, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
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jesus, more fuking echoes.
gobee if you thunk up something from your own gawdamn rotted mind, maybe we would hear you.
have you been reduced? think about it.
or can you, still?
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 15, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
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Jan...
rrrADAM-
It would be interesting to see the copyright on that quotation as it is almost word for word similar to what appeared in The Conscious Universe with the opposite spin. Who was trying to refute who first?
Nothing in it was in quotations, other than "P Value", and he used "I" statements, so I believe they are his, Victor J. Stenger's, words.
It was published in 2008.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:00pm PT
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Jan...That's the whole frustration with anything not connected to material data. It's not 100% accurate or reproducible. I understand why scientists say it doesn't meet their criteria for hard empirical science. I just think they're being closed minded when they say that therefore there is nothing to it.
For what reason would they be closed minded? It could open up new areas of research, that would likely be generously funded, so why?
Perhaps this is your way of denying their claim that it is junk science.
Again... In the over 150 years of reseaqrch into it, NOTHING of statistical significvance has come up. Even just a few psychics leading police to dead bodies is more than significant.
Why do cops go to them? Desperation. When people are desperate, they try anything, as it can't hurt, right?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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r3adam- We have to just let it go and move on, she's incorrigible.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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When the Day of the Lord comes, I wont say I told you so, I'll do it now!
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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So how did this one psychic correctly give the location where the body was located?
No one else knew where it was located.
This happened here in Yosemite ....
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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You're pretty good at typing with your left hand, huh go0B.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 15, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
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Psych-ed, Werner was he the killer?
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