Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 03:13am PT
|
Ed - Thanks for the reply. I get what you are saying.
First, what I have interjected was motivated the significant polarization in this thread. I don't come at this from a belief system into which I was inculcated early on.
The specifics of a couple of my own "experiences" that I have mentioned included:
7 or 8 years old; family dinner table; good cheer and rapid conversational banter around the table with people chiming win with random comments and exclamations; mom, dad, sister, grandmother and myself; I'm feeling content and relaxed; for the space of about 25 seconds I anticipate by about 2-1/2 seconds the exact words and sound effects that are to be said or made by whom. I note this phenomonon (something not previously experienced) with some detached, amused curiosity. This is a short space of time but time it on a clock and with the speed of the conversational inputs around me the phenomenon was marked.
About 35 years old; sitting in a chair relaxing with my eyes closed and becoming aware that I am looking at something; I see a smooth surface with lots and lots of little "bumps" on it; the little bumps are noticeable because they are highlighted by light from above and slighly in shadow on the lower side; the light has a particular yellowish color; there is a specific, sharply defined dark spot of specific shape which mars the surface. I note this with some curiosity as to what this is for something around 15 seconds and then the clear perception fades to nothing other than the diffuse light one sees when one's eyes are closed in a room lit with light from windows and some light bulbs. I open my eyes and note that the only thing in my "line of vision" is the wall some 15 feet away; I get up and go over to the wall and examine the area that was right across from what would have been my line of vision should my eyes have been open. Upon close visual inspection (6 to 8 inches), I see the myriad tiny bumps resulting from that particular paint job; I see them highlighted by the wall lamp set some 3 feet above with the yellowish cast of the standard incandescent bulb; I note a tiny chip in the paint of the exact shape of the dark spot I examined with my eyes closed from 15 feet away. The chip in the paint is some 1/16th inch in it's largest dimension.
From neither of these "experiences" did I receive any message from on high or launch into any pervading sense of "spirituality". They were "matter of fact" experiences to me because they both involved perceptions which were followed in close sequential time by confirmation by normal sensory perception which I continuously used before and after the perception that arguably violated the standard sensory channels. The sensory channels "violated" were working before, during and after the occurences. There was no missing time, or lapse of other perceptions, simply the augmention of another perception. Neither of these experiences seemed at all extraordinary, they simply occurred. I would say that the common denominator was a condition that could be described as that of relaxed contentment. Looking back at these particular experences, I would also add that there was a concomitant lack of any sense of threat or concern about the environment around me. (I'd say that is simply stating the other side of the coin.)
I don't consider these particular things remarkable. They were mundane; they had no prophetic value, etc., etc. However, they are among the things that inform my understanding of myself and the world around me. That information does not, to me, in any way nullify the existence of this physical world or the sciences, etc., or commit me to that which I do not personally understand by way of personal experience rather than "belief" or "faith".
I consider myself a philosopher than a religionist or transcendtialist or spiritualist, etc., in the sense that a philosopher is a "lover of knowledge" and, to me, knowledge reflects in workability in the "real" world. And to me, knowledge is intimately connected with the personal integrity of what one knows for oneself by one's own experience - and - one's continuing pursuit of it - and - one's willingness to alter one's understanding based on experience rather than solidifying a particular understanding to the point where experience becomes skewed to suit that "understanding".
This viewpoint could "come down on" either "side" of the "debate" that this ongoing thread represents. I entered into this thread with the question, "how many people believe they are spiritual beings, whether they believe in God or not?" I have known a physicist who converted to Catholicism and believed he had an eternal sould. I have known "believers" who believed they had no individual spiritual identity and "ashes to ashes, dust to dust". It's quite a hodge podge when it comes to individuals and how they interpret stuff, whether or a "physical" or "spirutual" bent.
Ok, I'm rambling on now and it's getting late again. Thank you for your reply. I hope this clarifies to some degree why I put things the way I did.
|
|
GBrown
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 03:27am PT
|
Ed - After making my post, I just read your post above. Makin' me smile. Yer coool as shit! (That is nicely meant.)
|
|
Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 03:32am PT
|
Ed,
Your last reminds me of "Does a tree make a sound when it falls in a forest with nobody in earshot of it?"
|
|
PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 03:42am PT
|
you know, what I really find interesting about this thread?
After so many posts no one seems to have the information to end the debate...
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 05:02am PT
|
I have been a scientist for a long time, but I have not neglected to learn about spiritualism and mysticism and religion... there is the assumption by those who practice in those areas that because I reject them I could not have studied them correctly, or deeply, or genuinely. It is possible that I have done all that, and I just can't find the answers I'm interested in along those particular lines... perhaps it works for others... but I am only slightly offended by the presumption that I failed to correctly learn those disciplines. I say slightly offended because I feel the same way about people talking as if they know something about science who I believe never really studied it to understanding.
I can only offer my own experience per answering this paragraph. Most of us find it helpful to remember that our minds are very subtle and this process is wildly counterintuitive at many junctures.
One example of the later is that deeper understanding of being and existence and spirituality only begins once we STOP asking questions. The reason is that the questions will invariably be asked from the level of our understanding, and it is exactly that level we are hoping to transcend. Virtually every spiritual tradition will tell us that we cannot think our way to heaven, or some such thing. But asking questions is really just projecting our conditioned and evaluating minds onto reality, and only those "answers" that conform to the preconditions or our evaluating minds will be considered valid. Koan study in Zen is in part an attempt to so exhaust the evaluating mind with imponderables (what is the sound of one hand clapping; What is mu? Can a dog be enlightened?) that it, and all of it's questions, will drop away, and the real learning - that beyond our conditioning - can begin.
Another interesting credo, one which totally confounded me when I first heard it was that, "Self knowledge avails us nothing." That is, a merely intellectual canvassing of self will provide no significant transformation experience at all because it is so superficial. In fact it has been said that "thinking about spirituality is like dancing about architecture." This work required a much more profound dropping into that applying our minds to existential questions.
More later, but Ed's comment about "rejecting" mysticism reminds me of the old arguments we used to hear in the Zen community when people would complain that rabis and Catholic priests and nuns and other religious leaders were starting to practice and later be teachers in the in tradition. People who didn't know better voiced strong opinions that Zen was incompatible with Christianity or Judaism or Islam or whatever, and the answer was - that's entirely impossible for the simple reason that Zen has no content. What, in other words, are you feeling is incompatible with your religion, ergo, what is it that Ed is rejecting?
Most of this breaks down to people not knowing or believing that the evaluating/discursive mind is the wrong tool for this adventure because it's simply too limited and superficial. They are also not sufficiently and directly embedded in reality. IME, that kind of embeddedness can only be accomplished by dropping deeply into being, as in human being, before thought arises, and this is hooked up with presence, which is the harmonic or texture of infinity.
Great discussion.
|
|
Fredrick
Social climber
Ocean City, NJ
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 06:32am PT
|
Hey John,
Only based on your comment, "It is possible that I have done all that, and I just can't find the answers I'm interested in along those particular lines... perhaps it works for others.." I'm going to have to say that you haven't studied scripture for "It's not about you!" One big misconception about getting to know God is that once someone learns an iota of what God gives to them in His Word is that they somehow become better people, hence, "it works for others." Sure, many come to know the Word of God after hitting "rock bottom" and are looking for something to get themselves out from that hole. But after getting good Godly counsel they will quickly learn that it's not about them, for it was that very attitude that put them where they are in the first place! Some, after receiving the holy Spirit, by committing their lives to Jesus Christ, become transformed as if a metamorphosis occured and become "new creatures". Others, seem to never get out of the hole that they were originally in, which would surely cast doubt on many's faith or on those trying to find the Truth. The word of God clearly states in the book of Matthew 22:37-40:
"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
As you can see, there is nothing in those verses in reference to "you". It's about "God" and "thy neighbor". So, it doesn't work for me, it works for God and for my fellow brethren! Yes, the fruit, or result, of abiding by these commandments are the fruits of the capital "S", Spirit; Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, etc., but to be blessed with these, it's not about me!
Please don't get offended for this is not my intent. I'm just debating what you said is all and hoping that others will find the love, the joy and the peace that can come by getting to know God's Word.
Glory to God.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 11:14am PT
|
He Fredrick... that was my line, don't pin it on Largo...
but your attitude is what I was talking about, and Largo also has it too, that one cannot but accept the teachings of whatever system if one just "understands" what that system is about...
for you it's the gospels, well there is a lot of good stuff in that book, good lessons, and there is a lot of irrelevant dross too. It's a narrative, a story, told in a way to make its lessons understandable, written and revised by wise men and wise story tellers. But conducting oneself in a "good" way doesn't need to depend on ultimate reward or punishment. It is an infantile way to enforce behavior which is socially positive.
I am not trying to reason the really big ideas into understanding, usually just taking little steps... I don't think I have any problem understanding the "void," "nothingness," and the compliment of "form." I work in a community of thinkers, and am happy to hear what anyone else has to say. But as for the ultimate answers to the ultimate questions, or as Largo might say, opening myself up to the universe... fine, so what? There are many ways to the enlightenment that our own personal concept of reality is limited and fails to encompass everything that there is... there are many paths to that realization, some of them ancient, some of them new.
I'm sure I come off sounding arrogant to some, and certainly lots of what I write here is not new or original. As far as new goes, the science stuff is part of a rather recent tradition probably not more than 400 years old, in terms of understanding, it has done a very good job. It doesn't answer all the questions you have, of course, and one could dislike the some of the answers when you put them up against 2000 year old traditions, or 5000 year old traditions or 25000 year old traditions...
...you should try it sometime, it is a slow journey into the unknown, an adventure, and you probably end up somewhere you didn't expect to when you started.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
|
"The electron is materially inconceivable and yet it is so perfectly known ..."
Now that's a nice statement .....
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
|
Ed wrote: "one cannot but accept the teachings of whatever system if one just "understands" what that system is about..."
I won't try and bash you over the head with this, but I will try to make it as clear as I can - not so easy, or I would already have accomplished it, even to your satisfaction.
I accept that I cannot rip your mind away from the discursive and evaluating "left brain" function attributed to "understanding," which almost certainly in this case will involve some kind of definition or explanation or breakdown of reality. This is NOT what I have been driving at.
In a tradition like Soto Zen, the entire emphasis is on boring ever deeply into what our life IS, what this moment IS, what reality IS. That is the practice. You are told to shut your trap, loose the beliefs and ideas, sit quietly and listen and watch and be with yourself with no filters, so far as you can. That's Zen. Zen is NOT one person telling the world something to "understand" with your evaluating mind. Zen is, like many other traditions, a process of settling into reality on reality's own terms. Being with the world, and with ourselves, just exactly as we are - fostering a mindset of having no preferences. Good or bad, happy or sad, it's all just shifting experience.
There is no teaching to accept, beliefs to adhere to, or ring to kiss, or God to worship. By the totally open end way the practice is set up, if you reject "it," you are not rejecting Zen, which doesn't have any content of it's own, you are rejecting the reality of your own life, since that's all Zen is - settling ever deeper into your own life, moment to moment.
No one is going to tell you what your life is - but a skilled teacher can keep asking you questions so your inquiry keeps getting deeper as you go.
What most of us want, however, is to be offered a ready done metaphysic (a "bible" or Torah or Koran of some kind) that we can contrast alongside what we already know or think that we know, or deconstruct in the same way we do other things. "Here is a time tested way for you to find out for yourself," is not what most people want to hear, because it involves a big commitment to the unknown, with no guarantees. That's why serious spiritual joints are mostly empty. Most people simply want to noodle their lives on a superficial, analytical level. No harm in that, but it might do well to remember the credo, "Self knowledge avails us nothing."
JL
|
|
bestill
Trad climber
s. ca.
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
|
why do people believe in god? beats me.
|
|
illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 04:12pm PT
|
" But conducting oneself in a "good" way doesn't need to depend on ultimate reward or punishment. It is an infantile way to enforce behavior which is socially positive."
Pssst...it's not about you Ed (said in a whisper).
|
|
illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
|
On that note, I open up my email this morning and viola...
"It's not about being delivered. It's about the Deliverer!"
On this Independence weekend, we have so enjoyed our freedom in America and our freedom found only IN Christ. Both freedoms are a gift from God. We are truly fortunate people indeed. If we did not behave that way this weekend, shame on us. But fortunate we are, whether we meditate and appreciate it or not!
Why are we so fortunate? It is because we have been delivered! In America, we have been delivered from the tyranny of a former ruler. The very words of our original thirteen colonies declared in our "Declaration of Independence" from Britain these words declaring our absolute delivery from tyranny!
"Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world. . ."
Though the pain of these earliest of Americans citizens is surely lost on most all of our countryman, it doesn't change the fact that our good fortunes are so valuable that no one in the whole wide world, save another fellow American, is as fortunate as we!
We ought also to be thankful for our freedom in Christ. For in that freedom we have been saved from the tyranny of the devil. Where would your life be without America and its freedom? What would your life be like without Christ and His freedom?
Life is good. But still, though our life has been delivered, it has not been so delivered that we should honor our delivery. But rather it is our DELIVERER that should be honored and He should be honored for His delivery!
"For to me to live IS Christ, and to die is gain." - Phillipians 1:21. If you are alive and free today, IS Christ? Or does He lie dormant in your spirit bound by your unwillingness to give Him access to the life He bled and died for?
Independence from my former dependence is not for me to live it up. It's for Him to live it out!"
Have a wonderful day IN the Lord!
Steven Curington
(Founder of Reformer's Unanimous International)
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
|
Why do people believe in God?
Why do physicists believe in Dark Energy?
Answer: It's just putting a label on a mystery. Calling it by a familiar term increases our comfort level where we don't know.
People are obsessive about knowing and are driven crazy by a mystery; i.e. things that go bump in the night...was that an intruder, or a bear, or just the ice-making machine in the refrigerator?
If we don't understand it, then it is a mystery, or magic, or a miracle, or a scientific anomaly. The worst ones are where we are convinced that we know.
In actual fact most everything we think we know is probably wrong; based upon analysis of human historical beliefs.
(we have much to learn)
|
|
illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
|
Tom,
You may not "know" but I'm 100% certain that when I die I will spend eternity with Jesus Christ!
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
|
And I am 100% certain that absolutely nothing will "happen" when I die.
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
|
The worst ones are where we are convinced that we know.
fixed ideas do not improve awareness
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
|
Eternity with Jesus Christ....sounds rather boring, now if you throw in Mary Magdalene.....
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
|
The evidence seems to be getting stronger.
Humans are psychologically incapable of existing in the presence of mystery. It is a huge flaw.
The world has a lot of mystery in it.
If one has a different frame of mind, mystery is a pot of gold.
Imagine how fun a climb, even a 5.4 can be, if you go up without having any idea what is there.
Some like mystery. Like it because it is something for which an explanation can be found.
Others hate it with a passion.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
|
Tom, Jstan- Well, I think you're both falling into a sort of religious trap, here. I say a "religious" trap because we are used to using, hearing, the very same argument delivered to fundamentalist religious people.
Sure, there are mysteries and unknowns out there. But one can also draw some lines- bright red lines- between those and what we know with a high level of confidence through trial and error, everyday living, experience, science, engineering, etc. Of course, however, there is art, skill, that is required to draw some of these lines.
"The worst ones are where we are convinced that we know." Agreed, in some circumstances.
Then again, in a lot of circumstances, "where we are convinced we know" is not a bad thing but a good thing. Performance, behavior, results, of all kinds depends on being convinced we know, on having knowledge and acting on that knowledge. In sports, in business and industry. And I would suggest equally so in the "practice" of living.
We are not yet, by and large, in a habit of reframing this. We are falling for the traditional religious framing here. It's time we reframed it. Reframe it (a) in terms of decision-making, for better or worse, (b) standing up for your decisions, and then (c) accepting accountability, again for better or worse, for those decisions and stances. That is a strategy that we all use, that is played out everyday, in all areas and fields of the human experience, for moving forward.
Yeah, I am pretty "convinced"... in different terms, I have a "high level of confidence" (a) that DNA is a real molecule (even tho I've never seen one personally), (b) that a 10.2mm rope will catch me or hold me sometime in a fall or take in the next couple of weeks, (c) that Aphrodite really didn't emerge from sea foam off some Greek isle 2,500 years ago despite what history's claimed (even though I wasn't there).
I just think we ought to be more careful with blanket catchphrases like (a) Don't judge, or (b) Being convinced you know is arrogant, haughty, not good. -When really performance, success, results throughout our day and throughout our lives (our "practices" of living) depend heavily on these processes.
P.S. Using Norton as an example...
I, for one, totally get Norton. At some point (1) he made a number of decisions (e.g., re: mortality, really biology, and the reality of Jehovah), which means he took stances, and (2) on this thread he expressed them. And continues to do so. As a decision-maker, all the power to him.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Jul 13, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
|
Lot's of good conversation here lately. Very interesting. Excellent.
For Pate and others,
For those of you who keep pointing out a GOD of vengeance and wrath in the Old Testament, I share with you PhD Michael Heiser. If you want to really know why GOD had his people (the Jews), wipe out all those other many different and separate Kingdoms and People, then you really need to listen to what was going on then and understand according to the Bible. PhD Michael Heiser is a Hebrew Bible and Semitic Languages scholar. He has researched these same questions you ponder, and he now knows why. By the way, many of faith ask those same questions. I have. Never really understood why, until recently. It is a very interesting lecture series . . .
PhD Michael Heiser and the Nephilim:
9 out of 9 videos in sequence to watch
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=E3B3C4A6F1D8A9F5
PhD Michael Heiser's Website:
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/
There is much I agree with PhD Heiser on, the truth regarding the Nephilim, the truth regarding UFOs, but I disagree with his take on Bible Code. He has a hard time wrapping his head around how GOD could do this, when the Bible has changed very slowly over time from scribe to scribe. Hey, GOD can do what ever he wills. It is probably child's play to do Bible Code for GOD, but light years beyond our ability to understand how.
Well, think about it, you would have to know exactly what the future holds. Well, GOD is Omniscient.
Edit:
Here is a link to PhD Heiser's new book. I haven't read it yet. Gets a lot of great reviews. Looks good. It's in my wishlist . . .
The Facade [Paperback]
Michael S. Heiser (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Facade-Michael-S-Heiser/dp/1931055440
Newer version:
http://www.facadethebook.com/index.htm
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!