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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 18, 2015 - 03:18pm PT
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Erik Sloan,
I've never met you. I've been reading this thread though since it was bumped these last few weeks.
One thing that strikes me about your posts is that, after all this discussion I have yet to see you differentiate between replacing bolts and adding them to an already existing climb. Maybe I missed something?
That difference seems to be the core of this discussion.
Do you understand the difference? (Provide a plain answer please).
Sincerely,
Brad Young
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 18, 2015 - 04:27pm PT
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Erik,
Thanks for an honest answer.
OK, you add bolts to other people's routes. In the interest of honest communications, count me then in the group of people who feel very strongly that that is hideous and inexcusable behavior (trying to avoid name-calling here).
I'm not going to try to talk you out of this behavior, since anything I say wouldn't affect you (apparently you're going to do whatever you want and no amount of talk will dissuade you).
I have another question though, about replacing bolts (not adding, replacing): When you don't re-use an old bolt's already-existing hole, do you pull the old bolt out and then patch and camouflage the old hole?
I've gotten mixed messages on this thread about how you deal with the old holes.
(And I'll go first with my thought on this subject this time - I always pull the old bolt and very carefully patch and camo the old hole - anything else is disrespectful of the rock and of all climbers that come afterward).
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 18, 2015 - 04:54pm PT
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I don't remember the belays on Salathe being death defying in 84.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2015 - 05:51pm PT
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Earlier in the thread I wrote that I didn't understand why Mark Jenkins was trying to claim that he might not have drilled bolts at the belays on Sea Of Dreams, because literally every party since has been happy that he did.
I very, very rarely call someone an IDIOT on these forums, but I must make an exception in your case! As the line from Cool Runnings says, "Whatever is wrong with you is no little thing!"
There IS no "Mark Jenkins" you are referring to. You HAVE been consistently accusing ME, Richard Jensen, of adding bolts to the Sea. Yet, I have consistently and CLEARLY stated that it is thoroughly understood and unquestioned that MARK SMITH and I did not add even one hole to the Sea when we did the FIFTH ascent of it.
So, whatever it is that you are trying to derive about that ascent in your muddy, sotted mind, it is based upon FALSE information, which has consistently been discussed as FALSE. So, if you want to refer to the Sea as some example of something, refer to all of the SUBSEQUENT parties that have added tons of bolts and trenched heads all over that amazing route....
NONE of which are legit, and NONE of which should be used by YOU as ANY example of "how to do it."
The Sea HAS been drilled down to a MUCH lower level by teams that had NO business being up there. And that is NOT what we want to see happen to routes. YOU do that crap intentionally and call it GOOD! It is NOT GOOD. It is pure crap.
WAKE up and try to claw your way up out of whatever deep mental hole you live in, and TRY to grasp some shreds of factual reality in your (even otherwise) lame argumentation!
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:03pm PT
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So from what I can tell from Donny's guide and Erik's guide here's Sloans vision for the future...
Ten Day After: Bolt count in Reid guide is 44 - bolt count in Sloan guide is 62!
The Great Slab Route: Bolt count in Reid guide is 1 - bolt count in Sloan guide is 48!
Lurking Fear: Bolt count in Reid guide is 44 - bolt count in Sloan guide is 92 + 16 more for free climbing variations!
Seems like more than a handful
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Erik Sloan
Big Wall climber
Yosemitebigwall.com
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
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Sorry about that Richard Jenkins, I fixed your name. I think you've lost it, though, as you told me personally that you added bolts to the belays on Sea of Dreams. I told you I recognized the homemade aluminum hangers you used, from the ones I saw on Wings of Steel when I rapped down the Great Slab while replacing the bolts on Never Never Land. Steve Schneider and Paul Gagner are up on Sea of Dreams right now. I assure you they are clipping your anchor bolts happily.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:40pm PT
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Grossman and Woot Boy.
Now those are some strange bedfellows!!!!!!!!!111111111666
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
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Erik,
I'm waiting for an answer still regarding how you treat old bolt holes. I'm trying to sort fact from fiction here, and I appreciate the fact that you're (mostly) honest).
Here's my question (and comment) repeated:
"When you don't re-use an old bolt's already-existing hole, do you pull the old bolt out and then patch and camouflage the old hole?
I've gotten mixed messages on this thread about how you deal with the old holes.
(And I'll go first with my thought on this subject this time - I always pull the old bolt and very carefully patch and camo the old hole - anything else is disrespectful of the rock and of all climbers that come afterward)."
Keep the response plain and on point please.
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
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ES-
Any thoughts or feelings on cutting wood in a National Park?
Community service or selfish irresponsible
stewardship?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:58pm PT
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Sorry about that Richard Jenkins, I fixed your name.
You have ZERO credibility to claim that you remember ANYTHING I supposedly told you.
1) You can't even "remember my name" when all you'd have to do is copy/paste it from a few posts higher.
2) I NEVER told you any such thing, and you'll find no aluminum hangers from us on the Sea for one simple reason: We added no bolts or ANY other drilled placements to the Sea. And I'll repeat, we were watched on that ascent more tightly than probably any other team. Talk to Barbella and Brand who were side-by-side with us all the way up.
I won't say it again: Whatever sickness is going on in your slender grasp on some distant version of reality, you need to "reboot" your thinking about our ascent of the Sea.
And I'll repeat from much earlier, even if we HAD drilled up the Sea, which, I repeat, we didn't, that would be NO justification for YOUR endless activities! Retro-drilling DUMBS routes DOWN. You are NOT improving anything!
I think you've lost it, though, as you told me personally that you added bolts to the belays on Sea of Dreams.
Complete fabrication. You can't even remember my name from a few posts above, even when in front of all witness here, I TOLD you my name. You have ZERO credibility to claim I told you anything about the Sea.
Goofball.
I told you I recognized the homemade aluminum hangers you used, from the ones I saw on Wings of Steel when I rapped down the Great Slab while replacing the bolts on Never Never Land.
There are SO many things wrong with that claim that I scarcely know where to start:
1) The Great Slab, particularly where WoS goes, is nowhere near NNL. So, WHY would you be rapping WoS to replace bolts on NNL?
2) We used a FEW aluminum hangers on WoS, but only on 3/8" bolts. We didn't even take any 3/8" bolts on the Sea, and we placed none. We weren't using Aluminum hangers even on our 3/8" bolts by that time, as there were some VERY good manufactured hangers for 3/8" bolts by then.
3) You told us no such thing, because if you HAD, we would have set you straight at that time, due to the FACT (oft-repeated and widely-known), that.... Well, I repeat myself because you cannot seem to READ with any comprehension: We did not place new bolts on the Sea.
Steve Schneider and Paul Gagner are up on Sea of Dreams right now. I assure you they are clipping your anchor bolts happily.
I assure YOU that you are an idiot, and I'll tell you that to your face... in fact IN your face if you like.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 18, 2015 - 06:59pm PT
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Ten Days After was a bullshit easy route with one uncharacteristically difficult section on otherwise good rock. Sounds like a problem fixed to me. If it were 10 pitches of A4 madness - Erik probably would have been one of the last people around to add bolts to it.
Otherwise, it's a beginner A1/A2 route with one section of runout free climbing. Yeah, maybe if Erik were a better free climber it wouldn't have happened. However, should a climber with his experience really be rapping off this with tail between legs, or was the climb actually just bullsh#t? I'm siding with the latter.
If you have a strong opposing opinion on the matter, I have to agree - STFU with your dull-ass boring posts from the 80's and go fix it.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Oct 18, 2015 - 07:28pm PT
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Yes Jim, indeed I was born yesterday and am incapable of fully understanding the ONE, SOLE, ONLY and infinitely repeated contribution to the climbing community you f'tards are capable of making - posting your boring dull-ass sh!t from the 80's to Supertopo with NO END. So sorry.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Oct 18, 2015 - 07:33pm PT
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posting your boring dull-ass sh!t from the 80's to Supertopo with NO END.
Let me add to the sh|t from the 80's, so that it NEVER goes away! NO END indeed!
Dumbing down routes by drilling, so that they are all sport routes, is "dull-ass sh!t" to the extreme!
And THIS tradition goes ALL the way back and ALL the way forward to this present day... NOT "80's sh!t" at all. ES is virtually alone in his relentless pursuit of the systematic drilling-down of routes. This is NO 80's "ethic."
This is the REAL DEAL throughout the history of climbing to the present, with rare (except for ES) exception.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 18, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
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So... to clarify for us noobs...a "handful" equates to around 43 bolts per route??
This Sloan-guy must have HUGE hands.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 18, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
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Erik Sloan, I have spent a lot of time in the Valley, and done a lot of routes that have no bolts, and certainly routes without convenience bolts... and while I didn't climb today, I was certainly around last weekend, though in a place you wouldn't know about...
You could call me a weekender if you feel that is an important distinction...
From your response to me, your "modern climber ethic" seems to be to make the routes friendly to all climbers. This is the gist of your response, the climbers at Swan Slab, today thought it would be convenient to have a beefy bolted anchor on top. That desire is sufficient, for you, to put those bolts there. (I assume you didn't use a power drill... so that would be "legal.")
The original route doesn't have that anchor. Generations of climbers didn't apparently need that anchor. But "modern climbers" desire it.
"Modern climbers" doing speed ascents of walls would certainly find rebolting very convenient. You expressed your vision of enough belay anchors to support multiple parties doing the big wall routes (I think you specified The Nose), both the aid climbers and the speed climbers. This would, indeed, be convenient. I can imagine that there is some desire to make this possible by some set of "modern climbers."
It is a unique vision...
Bringing the routes down to the lowest common climber's ability might seem like an valid ethic to you, but as an old codger I don't think it is the right thing to do.
As far as going up and repeating routes that have been, "re-engineered," I'm afraid that I'll probably have a hammer and a tuning fork along on some of those very old, historic routes and probably return them to the way they were... it might inconvenience some "modern climbers" but if they can't climb at the level of the FA teams on those routes, and the generations of climbers that came after them, they can work harder to achieve the level of mastery of those teams.
Not every route is for every climber... you surely know that.
Not every route should be re-made for every climber.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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Oct 18, 2015 - 10:41pm PT
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^^Hell yeah, Ed. Well put, and much more succinct than I would have said.
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raymond phule
climber
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Oct 18, 2015 - 10:56pm PT
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Added a couple anchor bolts to belays on Lurking Fear on El Cap, so now the easiest route on El Cap has all bolted belays - same as the rest of the routes.
How many bolts are there at each belay now? 10? I did the route in 99 and I definitely didn't miss bolts on the belays.
I replaced the chiseled fixed heads on pitch 11 of Lurking Fear with bolts in 2007. Those bolts have been super popular.
So one of the on the toes parts of lurking fear is now a bolt ladder? How do you know that the bolts have been super popular (whatever that even means).
The people that climb the route now have most of the times don't climbed it before and they also clip whatever they found.
So what more have you done to lurking fear?
Is the dowel traverse pitch now a bolt ladder?
Are there any new bolts on the wide crack above?
What about the hook moves at the end of pitch 12?
Have you done anything to the mantle move that you nailed on one of your ascents?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 18, 2015 - 11:22pm PT
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Crikey - this is just so fundamentally f*#ked up it's unbelievable.
That someone thinks they are doing 'community service' by dumbing down big walls is beyond unconscionable. This is as lamentable and regrettable a future as any which can be imagined.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Oct 18, 2015 - 11:37pm PT
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This guys been doing this for ten years and nobody's done anything to stop him. Ed H's post so far has been the only post worth reading because he saying he'll do something. Whether or not he will remains to be seen. Otherwise a bunch of hot online air. Will be interestesting to see where it's at in another ten years. The climbing "community" is so weak when it comes to policing itself. Poor El Cap. You think Sloan's the only one to have retro'd up there? How many routes are original? No wonder the responsible bolters who do the bulk of responsible replacement won't touch the place. Too much of a mess to untangle.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 19, 2015 - 07:09am PT
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Hartounaging;
I'm afraid that I'll probably have a hammer and a tuning fork along on some of those very old, historic routes and probably return them to the way they were...
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