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duncan
climber
London, UK
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Dec 10, 2014 - 12:38am PT
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Steve, as I said 8 years ago (!) on this very thread, I totally get the spirit of what you're doing. Your pin bolt is a bolt but with a nod to those who went before. As I said above, there may be practical issues why this is not a good solution.
How about putting in a regular bolt and attaching a stainless steel tag with the following message:
Be glad this is a bolt, the first ascentionist had a manky knifeblade
This conveys the same message and might raise a wry smile from the leader as she is about to embark on some sketchy .11a.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Dec 10, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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Kevin, there are indeed other climbs which this could set the bar on pin replacement for. Quiksilver comes to mind. I can understand why it's taken so long because climbing over a questionable pin is much different then climbing over a bomber bolt. So it's been a question of placing more permanent gear while trying not to change to flavor of the climb, asthetics aside. It's your and Ron's call and hopefully this can be used as a model. Be good to decide before Clint and the very few others who actulally do the work die off. I'd love to get on the thing.....
Edit. There have been other FA members who have wanted to keep pin placements though. Higgins wanted to keep the pin on "curve like her" in Tuolumne.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 22, 2014 - 09:26pm PT
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Kevin,
Ron and I talk about Space Babble every time I see him.
Last time he said he'd rather climb the Kor Beck and hang a mini traction line than lead some of those pitches again.
If you two placed (or blessed the placement of) a few judicious stainless bolts in key places formerly protected by sketchy pins, Space Babble would get the traffic it deserves and probably still be a spicy outing.
Hell, I might even try it again.
You'd have my vote.
PB
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Dec 23, 2014 - 08:26am PT
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I have never done the route, but here's 2 cents. This route is well known to many of us who have never climbed it, because of the style of first ascent. If it were bolted up, it would certainly become a frequently climbed route, and would probably become well known for other reasons, but it would loose what has made it well known up to now (among a certain group of climbers). Still, relying on pins that were questionable even when new is perhaps putting the bar a little too high. I'd vote for putting quality bolts near the locations of the questionable pins, and perhaps even replacing the good (when well driven) pins with bolts if modern pro won't work. You can't expect people to be climbing with hammers. That way, the runouts stay the same, but the pro that is there would be reliable. That's the balance that seems good to me.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 23, 2014 - 08:53am PT
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Just bolt the sh!t out of and put sign at the base giving the history of the climb.
It will read.
"We are now pussies and the result is we fixed it to present consciousness"
"If you want to be a bad ass don't clip this sh!t"
"Now go STFU and do it"
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Dec 23, 2014 - 09:42am PT
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Fixed gear should be just that, fixed. It is rare that pins provide long term fixed free climbing protection; they loosen over time and cause progressive damage to the rock. On a route such as this, with such limited gear, all the fixed pro should be bomber. Either use a pin bolt or a plain bolt where removable gear won't work.
Space Babble will never be a trade route, but it should be a reasonable objective for climbers will solid skills.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 23, 2014 - 10:14am PT
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I think there's a big difference between placing a few key bolts to replace marginal pins and bolting the hell out of it.
It would be a shame if Space Babble became a clip up without some jeopardy.
The run outs and much of the original flavour could be preserved while opening the route up a bit.
It would be a bit more inviting if you could do the first pitch with some sense of surety of not decking from 50 feet up.
That in itself would probably open up the rest of the route.
I think this discussion highlights the dilemma of the inviolable sanctity of the style of the first ascent and whether the first ascensionist has the right (or obligation?) to retroactively upgrade a fixed protection scheme that stands for eternity.
There's validity to both leaving it as it is and doing a careful upgrade of the fixed protection.
I'd venture that 4-8 additional bolts might be enough.
When Kevin and Ron are gone, Space Babble is what it is.
Should they be allowed to approve a bit of an upgrade to Space Babble?
I think so.
Would it be defensible to say leave it as it is and grow some cajones?
I think so.
Is there a cookie cutter here?
Definitely not.
Respect!
Edit:
Back in the eighties I did a first ascent at the Petrifying Wall that involved scrubbing the route on rappel, using all possible natural pro including hard to find RP placements, slinging flakes and placing a couple pins. I think I placed 3 bolts.
No Name Road gained an instant reputation as a very scary, 35 meter, high quality route.
I climbed it a number of times in this state and scared the hell out of myself every time and came away with the uneasy sense that something wasn't quite right.
I went back in the nineties, added about 8-10 bolts and took a lot of flak.
You can still take a 40 footer off of 5.10 climbing and the route has become one of the most popular routes in Squamish.
It wouldn't be fair to put a route led and protected ground up on sight in the same category but the thinking was to open up some of the nicest pieces of stone to more people.
Space Babble might be a similar consideration.
By contrast, David Breashear's Perilous Journey wouldn't.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 23, 2014 - 01:29pm PT
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I don't recall using the missing flake at all when I did that pitch.
It involves less moves and a slightly more favorable protection situation to climb straight over to the first bolt in my recollection. I could easily confirm that if I was hanging there looking as I had the rope hook on a tiny thumbtip of rock which made me reverse the actual crux move to unhook it with my foot and finish the sequence.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 23, 2014 - 01:34pm PT
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Kevin,
I'm confident there's a tasteful solution and minimalist approach that would honour the style of the first ascent and original character of the route.
PB
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 23, 2014 - 01:58pm PT
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That is what I am striving for if it proves workable. Big fat Leeper replica hangered bolt, if not.
Anything less for Kevin and Ron's BIG ADVENTURE seems inappropriate as this has to be their best effort on Middle Rock with only Mother Earth to compete with it.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 23, 2014 - 03:10pm PT
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1978 is a while ago...LOL I would remember and recognize the point where I moved left if I were up there again.
A trip up the B-W should be good enough access to the first pitch. I don't have the gumption to climb that one again right now either and couldn't really do the necessary work on stance anyway. The other option in good weather is certainly the rap route or having someone leave the last line in place on their way down if you could coordinate that step.
Properly fitting that angle hole may be pretty challenging and take two visits to get it right. I am willing to do the work and make the call as soon as I can arrange a visit. The bottom of the Turning Point needs work too so this is becoming a priority so that younguns can get the Thrill without the Ill!
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Dec 23, 2014 - 03:57pm PT
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is it a sin to have a few relic routes around? this was done in a time when people actually questioned the use of bolts. i mean, if someone really had the stones, the option is still there to go up and place pins. in the few years that i may have entertained going up there i always passed, knowing the strength of the 1st ascent party and the real potential of a ground fall.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dec 23, 2014 - 04:29pm PT
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I recall four pins on the first pitch. One crap blade that was mostly psychological pro about 20 ft off the deck, a decent pin driven straight up under the roof about 15 ft higher, an angle where the roof turns up from horizontal, and a final pin driven under the roof to protect moves over the roof to the first bolt. Here is a crop of Randy's original topo and a few photos with piton locations.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Dec 23, 2014 - 08:07pm PT
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Not having done the route my observations come with a grain of salt.
Terry Ayers has done it on gear, without pins. That is the bar at it's highest setting - post FA.
So it really comes down to whether Kevin/Ron want the route to see more traffic. Terry proved that the pins aren't necessary. Yes, he is talented, and yes he could be very bold (probably still is.) Regardless, if the desire is to have the route embody commitment and minimalism then the question has already been answered.
On the other hand, most people probably won't step up to that. So the best compromise it would seem would be to do as Perry and others have been suggesting. Replace only one or two of the most critical pins with bolts.
Replacing the pins with pins is not an answer. If they were poor in the first place they won't remain, and a few times replacing them will likely destroy the placements, resulting in either having less protection available than the FA party had or forcing people to bypass those placements with gear like Terry did - or - simply delaying the addition of a key bolt until a member of the FA party may not be around to provide input.
It is nice that Kevin is around and can make a call on this. Sounds like he is leaning toward one or two bolts and leaving it at that. That, IMO, is the best solution if the desire is to open the route a bit while preserving as much possible.
Routes that require a level of commitment like this need to exist, don't alter it any more than necessary.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 24, 2014 - 12:23am PT
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henny and wstmrnclmr,
Wise words, valid perspectives and food for thought.
Not sure putting the old pins back in is the answer as they're ultimately unreliable and repeated placements are going to cause damage and wear.
The fact that it's been led on widgets in it's current state is worth considering.
Maybe the route's best left to stronger bolder climbers and there are more of them than ever.
I like the idea of asking ourselves who we're ultimately hoping to accommodate.
Would we be losing or gaining something either way?
Given the ever decreasing likelihood I'll ever get on Space Babble either way, it's mostly conjecture on my part, but, for the record, I'd still be in favour of a cautiously considered bolt or two.
I think in this case, it's ultimately Kevin and Ron's call and I'd respect whatever decision they made.
Edit;
wstmrclmr, you took a page out of my book and deleted your post while I was typing this one!
For what it's worth, I think you made some valid points.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Dec 24, 2014 - 01:34am PT
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Ya Chief........I am torn these days. I really care about these old climbs but it's such a small subset of a small enough culture in the big world and I just don't know that I have much to contribute.........I hope to meet you on the East side when we move to Bishop next month.....
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2014 - 07:50am PT
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henny -- "Terry Ayers has done it on gear, without pins."
Yep, .... I was his partner that day .....
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Dec 24, 2014 - 10:57am PT
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Man this stuff is hard to walk away from........
Kevin. You and your climbs are featured in "Yosemite Climber", an icon which I think captures like no other the spirit of the day. It is obvious that you were a large part of the creation of the zeitgeist of that period. Your peers obviously thought so and I certainly did when I first saw that book. Especially those pictures of you and your climbs on the middle.
For me, this is a question of history and legacy. As Werner points out in his at times wonderfully cynical way, the "present consciousness" may not consider Babble and what it represents as important.
But I don't think that's the point. I think it's more important to preserve the climb because it is and icon of a generation.
And I wouldn't be so quick to write off the present consciousness. I'm in between. I was not a part of Kevin's era but that book was so important in forming my view of what climbing is and how I participate. And I can safely say that those images of Kevin and his climbs are singular in how and why I climb.
I was recently at a viewing of "Yosemite Rising" and at age 54, I was definitely much older then the crowd. It was obvious they appreciated the spirit and legacy of that time. Those who want to live that climbing lifestyle may be in the minority but they're out there.
Placing and adding a piece of bomber permanent protection on rappel after eating a ham sandwich will certainly change that icon and the meaning of it. This is a fact.
The right of the first acsensionist seems to be one, if not the only rule that has spanned the generations and era's and it is certainly Kevin and Ron's call. It's gone both ways: Super Chicken went through it and remains the same while Snake Dike was changed. I personally hope that this icon stays the same.
Edit: When I climbed Quicksilver, it was a major accomplishment to me and it was important that I climbed it in the way that it had always been climbed. If it had been retro'd, it is highly unlikely that I would have done it.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 24, 2014 - 11:07am PT
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Snake Dike was changed
Changed to what?
I've never had a rope on that climb, so I wouldn't have a clue what changed ....
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Dec 24, 2014 - 11:10am PT
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Werner...I don't use them either but the "present consciousness" sure does....bolts were added as Clint reminded me......
Edit: Bolt's have also been removed during restoration. Higgins asked that a retro be removed from the approach pitch of Rawl drive and as of last summer, it's gone.
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