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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Mar 19, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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Oh, I forgot to say "I LOVE ST!"
Dave
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 19, 2012 - 07:54pm PT
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You all need to open your minds to all of the the possibilities, not just the ones that fit your current beliefs. Maybe Marlow needs to accept that there may be a spiritual side of things and maybe WB and Largo need to accept that maybe there is just the physical and nothing more.
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What made you think we haven't considered that "there is just the physical and nothing more?" If a merely physical explanation was satisfactory to me I would accept it at once. It is not, though not because it would preclude any beliefs in doctrine or scripture, but rather because bottom-up materialism is riddled with holes as a logical construct nor does it square with my direct experience.
I have been rallying here for months that people open up their minds to the possibilities that just maybe they are betting against themselves, that reality is perhaps larger and more inclusive that what they can measure, and in turn I am told to open up my mind to a smaller view of reality, but at least one that we can demonstrate in material terms. Now who is close minded?
Next, Supertopo's own freckled stepson, Marlow, denies that he has all along championed a materialist POV that dismisses the entire spiritual universe as peopled by so many "spinning choirboys," rubes, charletans and delusional wankers who lack the discipline of mind to get it right and to stick with the facts. IMO, all subtleties and nuance are lost on this silly boy who has never bothered marching out of basecamp, but would speculate on the upper reaches anyhow. He'll just think his way there and call it good. But it never works that way - we can easily see why.
But all kidding aside (Marlow is an easy mark and it's my folly to keep screwing around with this but it's a riot), if I am indeed addressing a straw man with my arguments (rants), then what, exactly are you saying per the spiritual (NOT the religious) world above and beyond the standard materialist swill that it is all imagined, is based on beliefs entirely supplanted by hard science, has no material proof - as required for something to be "real" and authentic - is not soundly reasoned, is illogical, is fear-based, is yet another incarnation of Biblical God stuff, and (fill in the blank).
Curious to hear this one . . .
JL
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 19, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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Have you ever seen the wind?
You've never seen it, yet it exists ......
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go-B
climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
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Mar 22, 2012 - 12:23am PT
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The question to ask yourself is, do you believe that at one point a talking snake existed?
Usually out the side of their mouth!
When someone takes the parking spot you've been waiting for or runs ahead of you to beat you to the end of a line when you were almost there, you say you were just snaked!
Being a snake isn't cool, and that is bona fide!
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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Mar 22, 2012 - 12:33am PT
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I knew this reminded me of something.
BITD Hubert Lindsey was a prosletizer (favorite phrase "bless your {wicked, dirty, sinful} heart sinner"), who I ran into in Berkeley. He drew a small crowd and folks argued with him till they got bored. Hubert never did get bored and he stuck with it till he died in 2003. Some few folks have come forward and testified that he changed their lives (kinda wonder if he changed their deaths or afterlife). So what?
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Mar 22, 2012 - 01:02am PT
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can we get back to how RAD A. Honnold is?
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 22, 2012 - 09:20am PT
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First, "he" didn't change anybody's lives, God did through Hubert Lindsey.
"So what?"
If only I/everyone could ever see their "children" again after I/they leave this earth.
Edit: Alex is RAD!
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 22, 2012 - 09:49am PT
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That story reminds me of this story of Hezekiah:
2 Chronicles 30:1-10, 18-20 KJV
"And Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, to keep the passover unto the Lord God of Israel. For the king had taken counsel, and his princes, and all the congregation in Jerusalem, to keep the passover in the second month. For they could not keep it at that time, because the priests had not sanctified themselves sufficiently, neither had the people gathered themselves together to Jerusalem. And the thing pleased the king and all the congregation. So they established a decree to make proclamation throughout all Israel, from Beer–sheba even to Dan, that they should come to keep the passover unto the Lord God of Israel at Jerusalem: for they had not done it of a long time in such sort as it was written. So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria. And be not ye like your fathers, and like your brethren, which trespassed against the Lord God of their fathers, who therefore gave them up to desolation, as ye see. Now be ye not stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the Lord, and enter into his sanctuary, which he hath sanctified for ever: and serve the Lord your God, that the fierceness of his wrath may turn away from you. For if ye turn again unto the Lord, your brethren and your children shall find compassion before them that lead them captive, so that they shall come again into this land: for the Lord your God is gracious and merciful, and will not turn away his face from you, if ye return unto him. So the posts passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh even unto Zebulun: but they laughed them to scorn, and mocked them..."
"...But Hezekiah prayed for them, saying, The good Lord pardon every one That prepareth his heart to seek God, the Lord God of his fathers, though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary. And the Lord hearkened to Hezekiah, and healed the people."
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 22, 2012 - 10:03am PT
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...or when Paul spoke:
Acts 17:22-34 KJV
"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. So Paul departed from among them. Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them."
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 22, 2012 - 10:27am PT
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...and finally, after being tortured, as Jesus Christ was being lead to His glorious death:
Luke 23:27-43 KJV
"And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God. And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar, And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself. And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
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zBrown
Ice climber
Chula Vista, CA
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Mar 22, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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First, "he" didn't change anybody's lives, God did through Hubert Lindsey.
Actually these people changed their own lives, perhaps under the influence of Hubert.
When you say God did it, how would you know? Are you saying God is responsible for everything that happens? Say that someone says something stupid, is that God talking out the other side of God's mouth?
I would guess that people are walking away from you faster than they did from Hubert. BTW bless your dirty little heart, sinner.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 22, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
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You do realize quoting the bible doesn't prove anything right TD?
I can quote stuff from the Book of Scientology for you, here let me google something real quick.
googleing
Trillions of years ago, long before anything as we know it existed, there were countless immortal beings known as “thetans,” who found themselves bored with eternal life. In an effort to rid themselves of the doldrums, they decided to collectively create the universe and everything in it. Their hope was to have a realm in which to play the “Game of Life” and pass the time. But the thetans soon faced a problem on which they had not planned. As “spiritual” beings, they could not function within their “physical” creation. The thetans solved this dilemma by building bodies for themselves, the human form being only one of many different appearances.
Take that Adam and Eve.
Besides, doesn't God only accept 144,000 people into Heaven before he Master Locks those gates?
What makes you so special? Heaven is full I hear.
I believe everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, it's when people like you start pouring it out and telling us we're wrong for not believing it that p*sses me off.
Those books were written to make you BELIEVE them. Word for word. And if I'm completely wrong and your God is real, wouldn't I be the first for him to forgive? Or would he be a hypocrite by forgiving a non believer?
I went to a Catholic school for 8 years. 45 minutes of bible study every morning for the first 6 years, 1.5 hours for the next two. I know it pretty well. I don't know it verse for verse like you do.
And I hope to GOD you didn't type out those quotes word for word.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Mar 22, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
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No reason to get angry over someone quoting from their favorite book. I think what I see simply as 2000 year old stories makes sense to certain people who are lost either due to traumatic circumstances or who were otherwise looking for answers. You could find salvation in a IRS document if you looked hard enough.
Endless cut n' pasting of such texts is a little pointless though TD... If you could offer more of your own interpretation that'd be much more interesting.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 22, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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michaeld ..... you're really weird.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 22, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
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The power of the spirit around 2005:
"Since the Middle Ages, Limbo has been for Catholics a place (in Dante's vision, a castle) where the souls of unbaptised children go. Aborted foetuses, too. But a 30-strong commission of theologians established by John Paul II has concluded that a nicer destiny is necessary - namely that all children who die do so in the expectation of "the universal salvation of God", whether baptised or not. "In effect, this means that all children who die go to Heaven," a papal source told the Times earlier this week.
The Pope's announcement will end centuries of heartlessness typified by Pope Pius X (1903-14), who declared Limbo to be a place where the unbaptised "do not have the joy of God but neither do they suffer . . . they do not deserve Paradise, but neither do they deserve Hell or Purgatory". What a revolting invocation of deserts! Instead, the Catholic church now believes that God wishes all souls to be saved.
Today Limbo's children will be able to scamper with their satchels and protractors towards Heaven, where - fingers crossed - God will make Heavenly sandwiches for packed lunches."
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 22, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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Ah WBraun is right. I'm really f*cking weird. Don't get mad at him.
No reason to get angry over someone quoting from their favorite book.
And, I'm not mad? I'm just speaking the sense in my mind. I guess i'm more Realist than Religious. Kinda hard not to be. But hey, i'm young dumb and full of... well a lot of things, opinions being one of them I suppose.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 22, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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Everyone should believe in what makes them feel the best about them selves.
Don't shove it down other people's throats, or tell them they're wrong. If you're going to, then prove they're wrong.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 22, 2012 - 05:09pm PT
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Though watching Stephen Hawkins universe show thing on Netflix is kind of interesting. The Alien episode, where there could be life under sheets of ice on a moon around Jupiter or Saturn or something. Kind of cool. That guy is smart... Or quite creative nonetheless.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Mar 22, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
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Actually, I thought the scientology move was quite funny.
Thanks for the laugh Michael!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 22, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
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I think what I see simply as 2000 year old stories makes sense to certain people who are lost either due to traumatic circumstances or who were otherwise looking for answers.
There are only so many stories and we are still telling the same ones to ourselves over and over and over. If you think you can replace these narratives with facts and figures, you are simply telling yourself another narrative - a very, very old one.
JL
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