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pa
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 01:35am PT
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Jstan,
as definitions go, yours was a lengthy one, but I appreciate the problem and the effort you put into answering.
Slippery business matter is, despite being "solid"...on one end of the equation it is energy and formless, on the other it is mass times speed and acquires form.
So, now I ask this:
What distinguishes form from formless?
What does density mean?
Does it relate to frequency?
If I am asking too many questions, you can all tell me to shut up...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2010 - 03:24am PT
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Paul wrote
The real mystery may very well be beyond our possible comprehension and so we have two choices: we can choose obedience to religious or mythological instincts that inform us that life is corrupt as a result of human sin, that something is wrong in our world and it needs to be corrected through repentance and denial and proper behavior as dictated by some dogmatic orthodoxy or we can grab hold of the E ticket ride we call life and celebrate every aspect of its joy and horror and realize what we are: nothing less than the very creators of God.
But Paul, you're setting us up with a false choice here. These aren't the only alternative reactions.
Peace
Karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 10, 2010 - 06:11am PT
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John, could you read the rest of that last post of mine and respond to those thoughts versus just the first sentence. Thanks.
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pa
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 09:56am PT
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Thanks for the good links, Wanda...I was aware of the info, but it helps to "tune in" again.
Might it be then, that matter is a rate of vibration?
And that differentiation between one entity/individual and another is frequency?...such that, individualism, ie. manifestation, in the material world, is caused by an arrestment, of frequency? a suspension of potentiality? an incidence of motion, space and time?
Am I straying into woo-ooh land?
Best go climb a rock for a bit...see if I get arrested.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:13am PT
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Once you get used to the idea that there is no God, the idea of an immortal soul seems infantile and selfish.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:24am PT
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Gee, eeyonkee, I wish you'd come around to this section of the fire more often. To share your thoughts. There's a lot of stuff we could talk about- tho not of gods or ghosts or religions- how about gods or ghosts or religions-related. I suspect you'd be a breath of fresh air.
re: "get used to the idea" -that's a major insight right there.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 10, 2010 - 10:39am PT
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Jan- Thanks for the response. But I am sad because I think you missed the point. Boohoo.
Jstan- I didn't get the "HFCS is a wiseass" comment at all. Nor an answer. Boohoo.
For the third time, I was trying to make the point that one might accept evolution on scientific grounds yet reject evolution on "spiritual therapeutic" grounds (making the case that the so-called Epic of Evolution isn't as satisfying or life-affirming or motivating as the Abrahamic narrative, aka the Bible Stories).
In this case, he would be an "evolutionist" in one sense and an "non-evolutionist" (even anti-evolutionist) in another. Thought this might be an interesting point of discussion.
Oh, well, I give up. Time to climb.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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I have doubts about any duality being part of nature
hot --- cold
wet --- dry
and so on
Good point Dingus .....
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
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Duality is not static .....
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
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The universe as a whole does not support life, or anything conscious
So says the man who's been all over the universe ....
Hahahaha
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Only man would try to empty it, and with his own egotistical insecurity for the need to explain something he really knows nothing about.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:44pm PT
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Dr. F:
How do you know its not the same as the nothing I speak of??
Prove your emptiness is something
I have doubts about any duality being part of nature
What you've set up in your mind are two mutually exclusive concepts: things, and non-things. Except they're not mutually exclusive, but rather, they co-mingle, every day, all day, forever. The play of opposites can been seen in most everything, right down to our climbing, from us trying to muscle our way up even as gravity pushes us down. That's the dance, ergo the first fundamental truth: emptiness is form and form is emptiness.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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The LogicMen cannot abide this disconnect. They must have continuous logical connection through all threads of their lives (even though that is utterly impossible). When something doesn't jive, they reject it.
no, I don't think that is true. Certainly one of the things I've learned about science after doing it my whole life is that we can't explain everything, and there are things we can explain that have unresolved difficulties concerning the explanation, especially in terms of the entire picture of a purely physically based theory of the universe.
However, it is not to say that at some point those difficulties represent an impossibility in explanation. My faith is in our ability to reason through those difficulties and come to a larger, more complete understanding. I can't prove that we will, of course.
There is no conflict with science and spiritualism in principle, but when the two are represented in cartoonish ways conflict is possible.
Spiritualism, mysticism, religion belong to a very personal domain, a subjective experience which in itself is real, but whose origin is unknown. In someways, the insistence that the origin of those experiences must be real is utterly beside the point and not very important to the experience itself. Whatever it is that creates the ability to have those experiences (which I believe to be purely physical and "mechanical") does not have to restrict what those experiences could be... or at the very least, does not rule out the possibility of having "non-physical" experience.
As Karl pointed out above, it is a whole lot more difficult to see the universe and all its complexity and mystery as "just" a physical phenomena. But there are some willing to forgo the easier path and are willing to push along a much more difficult path, a path whose end uncertainly leads to a successful end. But for what ever reason, it is a path that a few of us push into the unknown.
If you see a "rejection" of a notion, generally it is because of it's failure to a test, or many tests, at which point it has no more usefulness, it does not aid in the progress... on the other hand, there is no notion that can be proven as "true" either, but rather lives in limbo as one of many notions that are consistent with what we currently know.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 10, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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HFCS:
After I wrote a book too long for the subject you said, "Can you expand on that?"
Was a neat move so I said wiseass.
That's all. Nothing more.
On freedom:
Of course we all can imagine anything we want and regularly do. And we all can train the senses so we have any number of personal experiences. I play regularly at stopping the voice. Good fun.
As to my being constrained I think we all choose our constraints. I don't mind being constrained by an equation. Then I am free to hope I'll be able to learn something. I constrain myself when writing checks. Then I have the freedom to whistle merrily without a care in the world. I never considered claiming dirtbag freedom. Not having things I must do is too constraining.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Jul 10, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
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Been gone for a short while to the 1st Church of John Muir (the Sierras).
So, I see the question has been asked or posed what do you think GOD is?
A better question to ask would be . . .
Q: What does GOD say about himself?
Well, now I could "pontificate" endlessly like we all do, but the Good Book clearly says Who and What GOD is.
So grab your copy of the Good Book, or go borrow one from the nearest hotel/motel dresser drawer (thanks to the Gideons) and do this lesson.
Yea, you're gonna have to read. You're gonna have to write. And you're gonna have to answer some questions. It's called homework. But if you truly want to know, and I think people do considering the thread count that has been generated here, then you need to do it, and not someone for you.
So get off your lazy buttocks and learn . . .
Q: What does GOD say about himself? (Lesson 3)
http://www.clclutheran.org/lfm/lfm03.pdf
The answer has been starring you in the face for sometime. Go to the book shelf and grab the Good Book and blow off the dust and cob-webs and get started.
Learn Who GOD is, What GOD is, Where GOD is, and What purpose does GOD have for your life, and How do you get to know HIM? . . .
The trouble with many learned adults is that they seem to think that they are at least as wise as God Himself, if not wiser.
It is sooo easy that even a Cave-man can do it (or Neanderthal or Cro-magnon Man). And guess what? We are all more advanced than they were. Let your inner Neanderthal be free . . .
All Geico Cavemen Commercials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5JV0Fs_GE8
Edit:
Here, I'll make it even easier for you. Here is the KJV of the Bible free on-line:
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/kjv/
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 10, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
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Ed wrote
As Karl pointed out above, it is a whole lot more difficult to see the universe and all its complexity and mystery as "just" a physical phenomena. But there are some willing to forgo the easier path and are willing to push along a much more difficult path, a path whose end uncertainly leads to a successful end. But for what ever reason, it is a path that a few of us push into the unknown.
The universe seeks to explore its a boundaries in all dimensions
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 10, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
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KJV-Psalm 7:16, His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.
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kpinwalla2
Social climber
WA
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Jul 10, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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Go-B said: KJV-Psalm 7:16, His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.
That sure sounds a lot like KARMA to me Go-B. Too bad all the folks that believe in karma instead of Psalm 7:16 are going to spend eternity in the fires of hell....
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Jul 10, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
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LOL! Just between me and Pate, kpinwalla2 I mean, Pate and I...Go Lakers!
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