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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 19, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
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I don't know if this is what Weschrist is referring to, but I just reread some of these further up posts again.
Werner, "god can be proven".
I, Lynne, have proof around me that god is real and alive, but others may not accept this proof. However, god will never be able to be led around by someone or put on the tv for an appearance to say, "Hey, this is God and He is Real." At some point in time god does require faith. lrl
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BBA
Social climber
petaluma ca
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Jan 19, 2009 - 10:09pm PT
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I knew a guy who spoke in toungues once. He stuttered. He said once, "TTTT...you know what I mean". He meant Toloumne, and we knew what he meant!!! This took place in Berkeley. A real revelation.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Jan 19, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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proof does not give legitimacy to a concept. it only demonstrates our coming to terms with what we did not understand.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 19, 2009 - 10:30pm PT
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Have been thinking much about the unseen world again today. Mentioned this earlier in the thread. We cannot see the wind and much of the things that hold us and our planet and the universe together. Some things can only be known and gazed at through special equipment such as an electron microscope and other devices. Others are still unseen and perhaps yet undiscovered.
Over many years Huge discoveries have been made. What theories some were punished and sometimes killed for are now valid and documented truths in the sciences.
So, we are still learning and discovering, I hope.
Thus I bring up the subject of heaven. Heaven is unseen and uncharted. It is spoken of as a real place in the bible....and spoken of quite a few times.
Do I discount it because I cannot see it, feel it or quantify it ? If one does that ... it is as fiercely wrong as those that condemned Galileo.
So you who are condemning the unseen are actually acting like the "religious institutions" of old who did the same.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 19, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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Finally, as I was thinking today it hit my brain that the "unseen stuff" is an awesome thing that jesus spoke about, addressed, and gave us. The unseen stuff consists of things no one can take from us. No dictator, no nasty spouse, no mean parent when you were growing up, no boss, no deceitful friend, no enemy...can take from any of us the unseen gifts that jesus has for us.
I began to think about this and came to the conclusion that this is so very incredible! A human would not think this way, to me this is a god thing.
Most of the things we humans deem as important in our lives and in our lifetime here on the planet can be lost, stolen, broken, loaned and never returned...yo get my drift.
The things that god and his son jesus gives us can't be "dusted" by the above circumstances. So if some bad dude gets in power he can take all our possessions, but not heaven or faith or hope or love or joy or trust....you get my drift.
jesus gave us stuff that no one could ever take from us. It's stuff he and me are good for, together. So, yo are never at the real mercy of bad dudes. The real is forever and they can't steal it from you.
IMHO and Love from Lynnie
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Jan 19, 2009 - 11:00pm PT
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Great post. Lynne!
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:15am PT
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Weschrist here is my take on a few of those questions,
Why then are so many Christians scared as hell to honestly examine the possibility of their existence without God?
----I'm not sure. Fear possibly. Doesn't bother me though. I think many self proclaimed Christians are more afraid to ask..."what if what I say I believe is actually real?" Might make them a bit squirmy to have to put action or true faith to what they claim to believe.
Why are they incapable of realizing human beings are perfectly capable of figuring out that killing, adultery, and deceit are bad without being told by God and threatened with eternal damnation?
----I don't think that's a real problem for dedicated Christians. I am fully aware and agree with you that man is capable of all you say. I believe man is programmed with a fairly innate sense of right and wrong and would know such even without access to the Bible or the Gospel.
Why are they so quick to attribute strange phenomena to God, from burning bushes and voices in their head to quantum physics... yet denounce evolution or the well documented age of the Earth?
----I would say science and God work wonderfully together. They do not have to contradict each other as many on both sides of the argument seem to believe. I think many Christians are cool with microevolution, as am I, but making the jump between species takes more faith than believing in a burning bush. I'm all for a good discussion on evolutionary science and have a background in genetics, microbiology and cell bio, but that one's a rabbit hole due to the faith involved on both ends of the spectrum in my opinion.
Age of the Earth.....you'll find good arguments on old earth and new earth philosophy brewing all throughout Christian academia. This should not be an Us Christians vs. You NonChristians issue. Like genetics, there is still so much good data out here being discovered at such a rapid pace, that you gotta be nuts to say the verdict is in. Look at what we didn't know about the human genome ten years ago. We will probably look back and laugh at ourselves for the conclusions we draw now on this kind of issue.
All of which should be considered non essential tenants of the Faith. You can care or know nothing of these hot button issues and still get it right by God. Similarly, you can be an ordained minister who's educated in Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew and still miss the whole enchilada.
Again, you seem pretty irritated by misconceptions about Christianity that just aren't true of what Christ was really about or the worldview real Christians share. I'd love to apologize for all the actions of those who taint the Faith in the eyes of their fellow man, but that may not be of much use. I'm just here to try and explain the real deal about Christianity for the record.
I didn't invent this stuff. Its just what I believe to be True and not the invention of any man.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:39am PT
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Lynne and Micronut,
Excellent posts. I must admit, though, that we've strayed a bit from rockermike's original question. Still, your posts illustrate quite nicely the real debate: between those who believe in God, and those who believe in humanity's oldest and most dangerous idols -- ourselves.
John
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:43am PT
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I apologize JE, seriously.
I tend to stray...they have a name for us today, but I dislike labels. Just kick me any time .... I don't take it personally...usually. Give permission for anyone to keep me on topic.
Night all for now. Lynnie
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:52am PT
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"A combination of doctors and medicine mixed with god....or god alone... does.....or does not."
Bingo!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 01:29am PT
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So you heard what I was saying, Jaybro ? Comments are so often passed over. Did you hear me say, healing is not a given ?
Healing comes from Dr.'s, God and Medicine...or just the body taking control and getting betta again. Or sometimes healing is not given and one dies. Also, sometimes one is given life but not in the fullest extent one had before.
Life is, needed to be lived ....where we are, who we are, what we are...Live. :DD
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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Mickey-
WhatdoIwannatrailerfer. Thethingsgotnowheels.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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Awesome flick...Snatch.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 12:49pm PT
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The proof's all around your, Dr. F. You're free to believe or disbelieve what you choose -- for now. Neither my belief nor your unbelief can be contradicted solely by logic. We interpret what we experience, and that interpretation colors our thought.
As just one example, I find the process of natural selection the best model of which I am aware for explaining the survival of changes in organisms. To you, that's evidence of nothing regarding God, though ultimately contradictory of Scripture. To me, it's perfectly consistent with my belief in Him, and not at all inconsistent with Scripture.
Ultimately, though, my proof is in my experience. I know God --imperfectly to be sure, but I know and experience Him through the person of the Holy Spirit. You cannot determine if that is real or not, because you cannot enter inside my life and perceptions. Accordingly, you do the next best thing. You try to determine which people to believe. In stating (many posts earlier) that the story of the Resurrection is a 2,000-year-old myth, you've chosen to disbelieve the writers of the New Testament. Your evidence is that YOU haven't seen Jesus, so He must not be alive. I've seen Him change lives, so I find it very easy to believe the Pauline story of what happened on the road to Damascus. While I wish you could see Him as I do, I cannot persuade you to do so without your own act of faith. Similarly, you cannot dissuade me without my placing faith in your view, but that differs from my experience.
For these reasons, I will respect the views of others on these matters, but that respect does not mean I hold those views to be valid, or believe it improper to try to help bring about change in the views of others. I does mean that I will try not to insult the morality or intelligence of others merely because they disagree with me. After all, as a Christian, I believe that Christ died for them, too.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 20, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
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Dr. F,
I think we're doing the same thing. My reality includes my experience; yours includes yours. I came to Christianity as an adult, from a position of what I would call Heroic Existentialism -- there's nothing out there, so deal with it. My experience changed my mind, just as yours seems to have changed yours. Incidentally, my comments about not insulting, etc., were aimed at Christians, not at you.
John
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 01:18pm PT
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Wes wrote,
"I have no problem with Christ. I have no problem with good people."
---I would ask, how do you define Good. Good in relation to what? And I'm glad to hear you don't have a problem with Christ.
"I have a HUGE problem with people who think they are good people based on the fact that they call themselves "Christians."
----I agree with you. Me too. But I try not to dwell on it unless I can be part of the change/growth they need.
"I also have a HUGE problem with people who attempt to impose their religious BELIEFS on society and scream freedom of religion when they are thwarted... prayer in schools, creationism as a subject, ban on gay marriage, chicks wearing veils, etc."
----Why? Why does it bother you. My guess is that you don't like the feeling that somebody feels they have the answer and are unwilling to compromise. In say, a heated political debate, there is always the chance that something you say could be taken to heart by the other party which may change their stance. You actually have a shot to win the argument....or win them over. Is that your beef with christianity? It claims to be the one and only way?
---I only share my beliefs in the hopes that somebody would hear something that would benefit them and lead to a change in them that brings joy, peace, and a sense of being loved here on Earth. Not to mention a wonderful afterlife. That's what compels to share. I have something special and I want others to have it too. Its out of honest care. Not to "win" an argument.
---I've stopped complaining when things don't go my way politically. It's our job to teach our children, not the schools. We should love and respect people from all races, religions, and lifestyles while still being able to disagree with particular choices and action of those people.
The Truth must be spoken, but it must be spoken with love and respect.
By the way, you gotta get back up to Eichorn sometime. Cathedral is better and more climbing, but the top spot on that pinnacle is a special spot.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 20, 2009 - 01:19pm PT
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"It doesn't really have anything to do with God, Jesus or Betty. Its in our mind, which is OK, as long as you know the truth."
Wrong.
It's not in your mind. Just as the driver of the car is not the car.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 20, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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Proof makes faith irrelevant. If one has proof then one CANNOT have faith. Faith is, after all, belief without proof.
I don't know why such a simple yet truthful idea is so difficult to understand.
Humans are given to faith in an attempt to reconcile themselves to the tragedies inevitable in their lives. All faiths are designed as vehicles of reconciliation.
Science seeks the truth unconcerned with reconciliation.
If God would reveal himself to us "all" then we could "all" "believe." Instead he reveals himself only through "faith." In doing so he calls his own existence into question. Why?
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
thats what she said...
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Jan 20, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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"Those are all fine and great. But wouldn't it be ABSURD if attempts were made to legally establish that a particular group's belief that ONE version of philosophy, art, kindness, love, and/or beauty should hold true for ALL others?
Why then can't you see the same is true for RELIGIOUS beliefs? "
It would be absurd. I think your argument here would be better suited for a thread which asserted that creationism ought to be taught rather than darwinism or that gay marriage shouldnt be legal for religious reasons.
The lack of categorical imperative here does not invalidate religion. Just because you can't legally establish my religious beliefs as superior to everyone elses does not mean that my beliefs are somehow worthless. It should be noted that many believers disagree on many issues but still respect their common ground.
Unfortunately there are some christians (and jews and muslims and atheists) who are so overzealous that they try to impose their beliefs on others but it has been pretty clearly established here that that is not ideal behavior, even from the standpoint of believers.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 20, 2009 - 08:23pm PT
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Wes,
Important question...
Specifically how has Christianity been imposed on you by the govenment?
And you have to admit that the society is trending towards universalism and secularism rather than toward it.
Christians are the ones concerned about this progression in western culture. I would think athiests are pleased with the increased secularism in America over the past twenty years.
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