Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2007 - 03:12pm PT
|
Would that be Bring'um Young?
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
|
Sep 20, 2007 - 03:18pm PT
|
Looks to me like a cartfull of trouble.
|
|
Alex Perry
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2007 - 02:42am PT
|
So now that so many of you have vented and posted all the basic and usual untruths and half truths, and somewhat truth, and outrageously ridiculous b.s., couched in a few actual truths, and wasted all that time stating your highly unscholarly and unobjective case, however badly, however sloppily, may we ask the point?
Someone else said it right: Like the words of Paul. Spiritual things are foolishness to the natural man. You won't ever get it, not that you want to.
You would shed more light on the LDS faith if you would focus on what is good about it or what you like (probably nothing in it you like, though). If anyone wants to learn about some religion they don't go to one who has only vile hatred for that religion. They can learn infinitely more from those who live the faith.
You bring only darkness with your negativity. It doesn't edify anyone. It doesn't educate anyone. It's not instructive. It's not accurate. It doesn't change a thing, or anyone. You're anything but convincing.
Hope you don't take it too hard or as a mean comment, but this thread seems like a bunch of pygmies gathered around a boiling pot, and you got Jennie in the pot, and we'll liken her to Einstein, and she's said something about quantum physics, and you're in a rage and ready to make dinner of her, as those words of hers don't make any sense. She's trying to help you understand 2 plus 2, for starters, but even that's enough to annoy your little brains.
I'm wouldn't call myself a religious person but the corrupt spirit some of these people here convey make me want to side with the Mormons.
|
|
nita
climber
chico ca
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2007 - 02:53am PT
|
Who's Alex Perry? ..............
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2007 - 09:34am PT
|
Uh,.. Riley,
this was about lessons learned.
Oh never mind.
You pygmies move aside, make room, I've got the baster.
|
|
Quaken
Trad climber
Las Vegas
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2007 - 09:41am PT
|
Somebody should check Bishiop Alex's harness to make sure he's back thru and his knot is right. I'm thinking he's from the PR department and learned what he/she knows about climbing from Cliffhanger.
I'm headed into Moland today and planning to keep my head down and only happy thoughts. They can read your thoughts if they got their stuff hanging down the right leg of the seceret magic skivvies.
|
|
wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2007 - 10:31am PT
|
Just wanted to shout out for the "pygmies". The comment about pots of oil and parboiled martyred christian prophets, no matter how tasty they may be, smacked of ignorance and racism. Also, I accept that many of the previous comments about the LDS faith, and its many factions, were born from ignorance as well. Still, it seems hard to get away from that when its a strictly us or them kind of thing.
However, I believe that when faiths, races, genders, nationalities, gangs, or any other artificial human division, proselytize absolute righteousness, well, then people get a little ticked off because historically, they usually have had their own way of doing things. Usually, those ways worked pretty well for them, their ancestors, and their community. Please excuse the gross generalizations and oversimplifications.
Maybe what Ron said, Humans are humans.
What John Prine said, "Some humans ain't human, some people aren't kind..."
To shed light on some of the current darkness (not all horror, not too late to stop it) in the Congo:
http://rainforests.mongabay.com/congo/congo_people.html
Final thought. I like the forests here. Maybe the importance of preserving the rain forests goes beyond the potential medicines, natural resources, carbon sequestration, irreplaceable species, or other potential benefits of those ecosystems. Maybe simply, people there like the forests too.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2007 - 10:51am PT
|
Prepubescent girls forced to marry octogenarians, How cool is that. "Gods law" aside, this is still a nation of "Mans law". W Jeffs is going down! And not just to the lobby.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2007 - 10:59am PT
|
I think you're right about Jeffs. The prosecutors have been remarkably manipulative, and the local populace (that constitutes the jury pool as well) have been whipped to a frenzy.
Its no longer about guilt or innocence. It is now about making examples.
Edit;
The jury just went home for the weekend.
If acquitted Jeffs will still face similar charges in Arizona.
|
|
Alex Perry
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Sep 21, 2007 - 01:02pm PT
|
radical -- you cite the catholic church. Well, say we wanted to learn about that religion. Do we focus on the pedofiles wearing cloth? or do we want to consider mother Tereasa? or just the good people down the street who are good and honest and honor the faith of their choice? There are more of the good kind probably than the bad. It's easy to see the bad in anything. That's not hard to do. And I ain't no pr person. Negativity is to look at the bad side, like seeing only the dumb ass stuff climbers do and not seeing anything good they do. Gee those climbers are all a bunch of dumb asses.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2007 - 01:47am PT
|
Believe me Riley, even without religion,......they'll find a reason.
|
|
Riotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, Arizona
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2007 - 09:59am PT
|
"...pedophiles wearing the cloth..."
Is it not true that both Joseph Smith and Brigam Young had multiple wives? The LDS church does not now condone the practice. Does this mean that your founding fathers were mistaken on this point? Or, did God change his laws in response to political pressure? (something the Catholic God seems to do quite regularly)
I'm not being a hater....I'm just trying to wrap my head around this.
|
|
Sam Lightner, Jr
Social climber
WY
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2007 - 11:44am PT
|
After J.S' death there was a big fight in the church over whether there could be multiple wives... (I"m going off memory here from "The God Makers" and Krakaurs book). If I recall, the church was being managed by 4 people, one of whom was Josephs first wife. Not surprisingly, she didn't feel there shoudl be a plurality of women in a mormon mans house. However, Joseph had fallen for some young thing and had really been pushing for another girl. Well, when the mob did him in, he sort of lost his vote. Brigham, for reasons I can't recall, sided with the newly widowed Ms. Smith, and the vote was "no" to more wives. Fundamentalists view this about how Shiites and Sunnis view the split in ISlam... you had to go with the words of the founder, not the guy who really made the chruch into what it is today.
I'm working on a book on Moab area history right now. Learning a lot on this subject. Really, I dont have that much against them. They have been very successful as a political force, and thats what makes them a thorn in the rest of our sides. However, most of what we "gentiles" (taken from Riders on the Purple Sage) get from the Mormons is pretty good stuff here in UTah. High standard of living cus they work like hell, low crime rate, skinny blonde girls, and a lot of fodder for the Wasatch Brewery to use in beer names. The alcohol laws are a pain, but I'm close enough to Colorado to bootleg.
As per Mountain Meadows... We all know what happened even if we can't prove it. However, its been a while and there have been a lot of other massacres since in other places. As Kennedy made famous, "Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
|
|
Sam Lightner, Jr
Social climber
WY
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2007 - 11:49am PT
|
Radical, if you want to read a bit on Buddhists gettin in on the sport of massacres, read a Thai history book... also, the CIA guys who worked in Laos, for the most part, worked in Tibet prior. They all felt the Tibetanswere the best killers, short of the Ghurka's, in the world.
Theres a reason all those monastaries have their own form of martial art and its not "meditation".
Oh, and you forgot the Hindu's... India got India, and Pakistan got Pakistan... that pretty much tells all.
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2007 - 01:53pm PT
|
Sam Lightner Jr,
The early history of Mormonism, you posted here, is in error on several key points. You mention two books, "The Godmakers", by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt and John Krakauers book, "Under the Banner of Heaven." John Krakauer, who is not a historian, made a fair to middling attempt at objectivity in his history of the LDS church. But "The God Makers" is complete misrepresentation of LDS doctrine, history and culture. No serious American historian, whether he be Mormon or not would take "The God Makers" as an accurate historical or doctrinal reference.
The Godmakers contains literally hundreds of lies and misrepresentations put into derogatory and hostile language. It's the antithesis of objective historical discourse.
http://www.fairlds.org/The_God_Makers/
The LDS church was never managed by Joseph Smiths wife. After Smiths death it was presided over by the Council of Twelve Apostles, the body by whom all changes in church policy is approved. Brigham Young was appointed to the office of President and Prophet by the council, although for some time Sidney Rigdon was considered as a possible sucessor. Jospeh Smiths wife founded her own sect called the Reorganized LDS. Except for one family, other Nauvoo Mormons declined follow her, and all later members to her sect were converts after the fact.
" Joseph had fallen for some young thing and had really been pushing for another girl. Well, when the mob did him in, he sort of lost his vote. Brigham, for reasons I can't recall, sided with the newly widowed Ms. Smith, and the vote was "no" to more wives"
This is false, both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had taken several plural wives by the time of Josephs murder. The issue over plural wives peaked in 1842 but after Smiths death in 1844 the central issue was if and when the church membership would move west and who would be appointed his sucessor. Most of the polygamous families survived the move west and in mid nineteenth century about one third of all Mormon families were polygamous.
"I'm working on a book on Moab area history right now. Learning a lot on this subject. Really, I dont have that much against them. They have been very successful as a political force, and thats what makes them a thorn in the rest of our sides. However, most of what we "gentiles" (taken from Riders on the Purple Sage) get from the Mormons is pretty good stuff here in UTah. High standard of living cus they work like hell, low crime rate, skinny blonde girls, and a lot of fodder for the Wasatch Brewery to use in beer names. The alcohol laws are a pain, but I'm close enough to Colorado to bootleg."
Best wishes with your book. As a historian I'm sure you won't take Riders of the Purple Sage as history and I'd advise against taking anything in The Godmakers as more than hate mongering. You don't show the the seething hatred of all religions that has been expressed by many folks here. That quality alone makes you a candidate for possibly writing sincere and objective history. Although I probably won't be patronizing the Wasatch Brewery and I'm not one of the skinny blonde girls you note, I will be looking anxiously for your book
|
|
Sam Lightner, Jr
Social climber
WY
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2007 - 04:46pm PT
|
Thanks Jennie. I named my sources cus I know that both are pretty down on the LDS church. Also, I was purely off memory at 8 in the morning.
I would also offer this: both Mormon and non Mormon sources like to embelish history. A book I just read by The Daughters of the Utah Pioneers smoothed over the entire section on U.S. Govt-vs-Utah/LDS CHurch relations in the 1850's as "a series of misundersstandings". A couple of books on the history of San Juan County give a chapter to the Indians, and a dozen or so chapters to the post "Hole in the ROck" era, but not more than a sentence or two to the Spanish.
I'm a firm believer that the Mormons were getting the shaft when in Missouri... I'm not sure how anyone could even argue otherwise. However, niether side should be pretending events didn't happen and I think that glossing over of regional history is what inspired Ron to start this.
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
|
|
|
Sep 22, 2007 - 07:56pm PT
|
Yes, I agree Mountain Meadows Massacre was looked past by most Mormons. The fact that most Mormon participants in the massacre kept their pact not to divulge what actually happened and the desire by Mormons to avoid the stigma of any Mormons having killing innocents, kept alive the myth that Indians carried out the killing.
The church brought to light an affidavit of a mormon militiaman confessing to the militia participating, with the Indians, in the massacre, albeit years after the fact. That with the skeletal evidence pointing to victims being shot at close range and statements of surviving Fancher party children makes it obvious that the massacre was indeed a treacherous execution of innocents.
Lessons learned? Those lessons aren't easily digested by an insular religious group who often see themselves as more righteous and closer to God than mankind in general. But it's imperative that those lessons be learned. Pride with hatred from past injustices and humiliations give unscrupulous people rationalization to commit unspeakable acts. (Consider Germany and the humiliations heaped on them by the world, and what it led to in WWII).
That people who worship God are incapable of atrocity is myth. Likewise, the popular knee jerk doctrine that the religious are more prone to atrocity is also mythology.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2007 - 12:57pm PT
|
Interesting that you should make generalized comments about those two groups.
As a jew living in Utah I have found knowledgable and truly committed mormons to be remarkably ammenable to us. Yet the rank and file (and perhaps less educated) among them are conversely xenophobic to a degree I thought only likely in this country in the deep south at least decades ago.
(Jena 6 notwithstanding).
|
|
Ouch!
climber
|
|
|
Sep 23, 2007 - 04:35pm PT
|
"forward thinking people GO TO THE OCEANS!!!111"
Better Fish and Chips.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!