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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Ron O saved my life.
Toker Villain is a great person. Only met him a few times at Todd's in JT. He threw you a belay. You need to make the moves to get up the climb.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Yeah, and that climb o life can get like some of those mud pitches that Ron O put up back in the day too! Clear head and courage are the best tools for that type of climbing!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I never put up anything in the Fisher Towers.
Plenty of nice varnished splitters on (relatively) soft rock, but I leave the mud to Byers and Bartlett.
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Enough with the digs at your wife already. You don't think you owe her for every single friggin day of misery that your drunk ass put her through? Took YOUR money...you don't HAVE enough money to EVER make it right.
I assume a big part of sobriety is still being honest with yourself and others. Try it sometime.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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I've known perfectly sober and healthy men who have also hallucinated during the loss of their relationships. I don't think it qualifies you as psychotic.
Really? How's this possible? Probably just got some pre-existing issues relapse..
In terms of controlling mental issues, my belief is that the main thing is not having any kind of relationships with anyone. Once this stuff gets cut out for good: it all gets 100% better, quality of life and all, a lot of time and energy is freed for fixing things for yourself...becomes kind of funny to learn that someone can suffer or even feel slightest distress because of broken relationship, or even need one. Really, all of that is just a self-inflicted illusion. And greedy ex-partners stealing money...don't want to get started on that, I'd have the cops on their arses in no time, they'd end up with a record. And how is it possible for 2 different adults...to have one shared bank account? I mean people aren't that trustworthy...that's the truth. For christ's sake anyone who got rid of relationship or marriage should celebrate the end of slavery. (to get legally married... one has to be insane, considering the legal climate)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I really enjoyed your post Jebus...spot on and well written!
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 3, 2019 - 03:00am PT
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Canyoncat, thank you.
That was a good reality check. The whole reason that my wife left me was that I was a raging alcoholic. Money shouldn’t matter when you’re subjecting your better half to the pain of seeing their better half drink themselves to death. Or close to it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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. Really? How's this possible? Probably just got some pre-existing issues relapse..
In terms of controlling mental issues, my belief is that the main thing is not having any kind of relationships with anyone. Once this stuff gets cut out for good: it all gets 100% better, quality of life and all, a lot of time and energy is freed for fixing things for yourself...becomes kind of funny to learn that someone can suffer or even feel slightest distress because of broken relationship, or even need one. Really, all of that is just a self-inflicted illusion. And greedy ex-partners stealing money...don't want to get started on that, I'd have the cops on their arses in no time, they'd end up with a record. And how is it possible for 2 different adults...to have one shared bank account? I mean people aren't that trustworthy...that's the truth. For christ's sake anyone who got rid of relationship or marriage should celebrate the end of slavery. (to get legally married... one has to be insane, considering the legal climate)
Sheesh foamingclimber who worked you up into a lather?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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A few weeks ago I had a conversation with my son (turning 17 soon), that I think is very apropos to this thread.
I asked my son, "What is the thing you are struggling with the most in your transition from being a kid to being an adult?"
He replied, "Realizing that the world doesn't care about me."
I was very surprised, proud, and relieved to hear him say this. It's at the heart of a strong difference I had with my ex in how to raise children. We each learn life lessons at different points based on our circumstances and aptitude to learn from them. I hope I was able to give him some advice that will serve him well in life. What I said was:
"Yeah, you're basically right. One of the main things of being an adult is learning to do that for yourself, and to create a network of people around you who really do care."
We talked a bit more along those lines... and later I realized how central that conversation is to a variety of issues that must be learned on the path to being an effective and independent adult.
If you learn to be the one who cares for yourself in all respects (whether it is maintaining your own ability to earn income or maintain a checkbook or cook yourself a meal, or console your emotional self when you are feeling down or lonely or like a failure or whatever)... if accept your personal responsibility for all of that, rather than looking outward for it all the time, you can be more selective in your choice of friends, in your intimate relationships, and hold out for people with integrity who support the values and behaviors that you aspire to. It is a positive feedback loop. The more you have a vision of how you want to be and work toward it, the more you can attract people in your life who share that vision.
Good luck on your journey Brandon. We all are struggling or lost in different ways, some more visibly than others, some at the beginning and some at the end of those journeys for different aspects of our lives. For me personally, guilt and shame have been elements in the things that have held me back, and sharing is a way of overcoming those limitations, to create space for learning, healing, acceptance, joy and happiness.
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Enough with the digs at your wife already. You don't think you owe her for every single friggin day of misery that your drunk ass put her through? Took YOUR money...you don't HAVE enough money to EVER make it right.
I assume a big part of sobriety is still being honest with yourself and others. Try it sometime.
Do you know Brandon or his wife personally? Money doesn't make emotional harm right. I don't know Brandon or his ex-wife.
Yeah, he f*#ked up and is suffering the consequences. Why kick him when he is down?
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fiftyplus
Social climber
Echo, OR
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240+ posts, all with some good advice and considerable insight. So many sides to a story, things can get convoluted. Question is... how many suggestions have been addressed/employed? As a recovering alcoholic myself, it was easy to lean toward the suggestions that were more appealing to me. Words like humility, community and mortgage all seem a little confusing in this arena. As a professional (in the field of addiction) it's hard to believe any program would encourage immediate work. I realize it's hard to comprehend, but if a true problem exists, nothing else should matter other than life. House, job and/or dog are all nothing without life. All of those can be replaced. If you're renting from your family and they are demanding payment, clearly you have compromised that agreement in the past.
Take care of self, don't get too well too quick.
It has been mentioned multiple times in this thread... why continue to keep it up when you don't need the financial support? Seeking external validation is a primary characteristic of those (us) who suffer from substance related issues.
Page 25 from the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book, Chapter "There is a Solution", "Almost none of us like the self searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of our shortcomings..."
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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NutAgain!:
I asked my son, "What is the thing you are struggling with the most in your transition from being a kid to being an adult?"
He replied, "Realizing that the world doesn't care about me."
I was very surprised, proud, and relieved to hear him say this. It's at the heart of a strong difference I had with my ex in how to raise children. NutAgain!, and what was a point of view of your ex?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Major thread drift, but for Yuri so I don't start another thread!
 My ex tended to live more in-the-moment choosing courses of action that made the kids the happiest right then, building up their sense of self
I sought to find a balance between giving kids positive feelings in a given moment, versus building up their tolerance to adversity.
Specific example: when my son was a toddler, his mom would let him win a game every time. I would alternate between letting him win and winning myself. I thought he should learn how to win and lose. His mom and I would have arguments about this. Another example: if he stubbed his toe, my focus would be consoling him, saying "it's ok," and he would mimic saying that to himself. My ex would help him hit the step with his hand and say "bad step" or something like that and he'd copy that. I thought that was wrong because it was failing to accept a personal role in the cause-and-effect and not forming an accurate map of reality.
She saw the world as bosses and servants, and wanted to raise our kids to be the bosses.
In the silicon valley upper-middle class Indian culture we were immersed in, it was very common for kids to run around wild at restaurants or social gatherings, interrupting adult conversations and the adults would mostly find it charming and indulge the kids.
It was a bit horrifying for me, having grown up closer to the school of "children are to be seen and not heard" and "don't make a scene." It was more difficult because the adults at my table were oblivious to this culture clash as they talked and laughed loudly, disturbing other people around us (whether real or imagined by me), and as a hyper-sensitive emotional scene reader (a childhood survival requirement for me), I would be in fight or flight mode trying to arbitrate between pleasing the tables around us versus pleasing my own table. My ex would get pissed at me when I cared what people around us thought. I hadn't thought about this stuff for years, and I can feel how much fight-or-flight mode energy I still have locked away in those frequently recurring moments from 15-20 years ago. This sets the scene a little more deeply for how different were our ideals and expectations of how to raise kids.
This conversation ties back to my appreciation of my son recognizing that "the world doesn't care about him." I see this as breaking out of the illusion created in the extended social scene of his childhood, where the adults are happy to interrupt whatever they are doing or whatever conversations they are having to indulge in whatever impulse he has to say something or show something. The world is not always smiling and encouraging and willing to stop and wait for you. This is not a normal baseline, from which one should be disappointed or think people are mean if they don't rise to that expectation. It's just another way of saying "the world doesn't revolve around you."
In complex topics like this, there are many facets to explore, and my inclination is to include more detail for fuller coverage (and to better prepare the intellectual defenses for my viewpoint). I'm fighting that tendency in an effort to keep this shorter. I already deleted several paragraphs pursuing different details ;)
This whole post is back-story for the point I was making earlier, and why I was appreciative of my son seeing reality more closely to the way I perceive it, creating space to have a more effective coping mechanism to deal with that reality:
Don't get upset if the world doesn't care about you
Learn to soothe yourself, and to care for yourself
That creates space to choose a supportive network of people who share your vision of how to be
That's as close as I can get to steering this back to the thread topic :)
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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NutAgain!, are you saying that alcoholism is one of possible coping mechanism and to get rid of alcoholism a person must find a way to switch to another coping pattern?
Do you have any idea how to switch between two different coping strategies?
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Zay
climber
Monterey, Ca
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Hey there, Say, Braindon-
Too many replies to read... everything work out???
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2019 - 07:12am PT
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Zay, how do you define working out? I’m still in my home, have heat, power, food, and internet. Now have a bank account with a six dollar balance as well. I’m not dying, just did a run Sunday on all snow, four and a half miles up, four and a half down. Only 2k elevation gain, but we did it in two and a half hours. Pulled a hamstring like a motherf*#ker. No job, no car, wife is for sure gone, but in my opinion, I’m doing pretty ok. My pendulum is swinging, so I have some highs and lows. Regardless, anything I endure with a generally good attitude seems to me so be good for me. A learning experience, making me f*#king stronger. I cuss a lot, sorry. Life is so not what you expect sometimes, but there’s always something positive to be taken from negative times.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Do you have any idea how to switch between two different coping strategies?
First the afflicted must realize they're broken and need to change. They have to want to change themselves.
Then the path forward is at least possible. For some it's years and years of therapy with a compatible shrink who understands them. Others find solace in group therapy or programs like AA which try to offer that long-term support structure for the tough uphill road ahead.
Some will also need drugs in conjunction with therapy. Psychosis does not go away nor does severe depression/bi-polar/uni-polar type conditions.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2019 - 07:21am PT
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Currently I’m on drugs for depression and am running quite a bit. The running is for sure trading one addiction for another. Everyone in rehab was against that, my doctor says go for it, run your heart out. Right hamstring hurts so bad. Walking sucks today, but that run on Sunday was frigging sweet bub!
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Yuri: yes- in my world view, alcoholism is one example of the general class of negative patterns we acquire in an ineffective attempt to deal with underlying issues. These issues can take many forms, but if you peel back the layers of the onion enough, they boil down to universal themes like: “I’m not worthy.” “I’m not loveable” “I don’t belong” “I’m not enough”. Like many other negative patterns, alcohol or any other addiction can be very effective at avoiding looking at a problem, effective to avoid being present and seeing reality with as few filters as possible, avoiding listening to our internal dialog. But it doesn’t make the problem go away and it has negative side effects.
Some people turn to religion, or exercise, or work, or various other things they can strenuously pursue that at least has positive side effects while they avoid whatever they are trying to avoid.
The thing that has been most helpful for me to deal with the underlying issues is this:
https://www.hoffmaninstitute.org
I tend toward the analytical side, and this process gave me the most accurate model I’ve seen for understanding myself and other people, including our irrational behaviors. Further, it was like having a few years of psychotherapy packed into a week, in terms of impact to defuse my emotional land mines. It is by no means a magic cure-all, but for me and many other people it is a clear direction to apply energy toward solving personal problems that is really effective.
I did observe a few people who got less out of it, because they seemed to be there for other people or for whatever reason they did not put in the work to get a positive result. They had an ax to grind, to prove that it didn't work. That itself is a negative pattern, along the lines of "I'm not fixable" and people sabotage themselves to prove they are right and to avoid the risk of really trying hard and making themselves vulnerable. These people probably put in a few hours of time on the pre-work before showing up. I spent ~ 60 hours on it, because I was holed up in a motel room in self-flagellation mode away from my family, and I was highly motivated to get to the bottom of my sh!t. I had fully accepted that I needed to try something different besides “just try harder”, and I sought out some environment like this to create a safe space for unpacking my issues. I realized I needed that after reading a few self-help books and having overwhelming emotional responses to certain topics, having moments of panic like “keep that finger in the crack and don’t let that dam burst”. I found the place through Internet searches, but almost everyone else there had been inspired because they saw major changes in the life of friends or family members who had gone. People there are a wide spectrum, but mostly high functioning people including some super-successful executive types, and psychologists doing continuation of their self development as part of their career (and personal well-being). Not everybody was frazzled and flaming out in life, but some were. But underneath our various facades and very different types of problems, the common small set of childhood themes are so remarkably similar, and the overall process creates a strong sense of compassion for people struggling with whatever problems.
I was coming from a relatively low place so the immediate relief in my life was spectacular. Not everybody has that intense of a reaction, but everybody was glad they invested the time and effort to be there. A key point for me too, was recognizing that emotional health is an ongoing process, more like exercise than like reading a book and gaining knowledge. We must make some effort and ongoing good decisions to keep our bodies in shape, and the same thing goes for keeping our emotions in shape. The Hoffman Process gives a great set of tools for that ongoing work, and a supportive network to tap into if you want it.
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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The running is for sure trading one addiction for another.
That's true. And you have already injured yourself because you don't know how to pace yourself. Everything you have ever done, are doing, or are going to do is too extreme. Your still in your guilt/punishment/low esteem/gonna be a hero/saint/winner conditioned cycle.
I know because I have been there. Doing is all you know. You actually need to put a full stop on all doing, and learn how to live w/o fixing one thing. Stop trying to fix things, including yourself---accept everything and everyone as they are.
1.Your parents were messed up.
2.Your messed up.
3.See it as it is--- all conditioned behavior to compensate for what it is you feel is wrong, missing, lacking, shameful, F'up in your life.
4.Society will not look better sober, it will look even more dysfunctional w/o booze because it is, and your not an idiot. It is not your fault nor anyone else's. We are stOOpid emotional Neanderthals.
5.Stop construction work immediately---it is a conditioned dysfunctional reward/ punishment loop tied in with the booze. You physically overcompensate and then you drink. No?
6.Start very very small or you will hit the booze again because you are a self fulfilling prophesying failure.
7.Study Buddhism until you puke.
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