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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 10, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
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Space Babble has some of the finest easy 5.10 and 5.9 climbing in the park after the first couple of pitches. Of course the no-pro situation makes it daunting.
So for mortals, a truly fine day is to do the first 5 of Kor Beck and then rap Space Babble, tope roping the pitches on the way down. This wasn't exactly safe before the rebolting but should be a fine day now
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 10, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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Top-ropping on your way down, now that's an interesting mode of ascent.
I seem to recall Doug saying the same thing about the upper pitches of Growing Up. Both adventures sound like they'd be worth the time.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jun 10, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
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I tried Space Babble last year. There were obvious places where a pin had been placed on the first pitch but was no longer present and looked to not have been for some time. These tiny pinscars would not take even remotely reliable gear and with the present situation of the climbing, continuing without them would have to be carried out without the slightest bit of prudence. I was able to back off the slow and under control way, but only just so.
A small rack of pins and a hammer would be required gear in my opinion. I don't get much time to climb in the valley, nor do I easily obtain partners who are willing to engage in such adventures of whom I trust to belay. So I'll probably never bother to get back on it. Looks good though.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 11, 2013 - 05:18am PT
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Chad,
I looked at the cam placements on the first pitch, although I was on rappel at the time. I thought it would protect OK.
Do you have any comments on the details I posted on my page about the pro?
Space Babble p1
line of climbing on p1. None of the original fixed pins were in place on p1, and it had been led without them; Aliens or TCUs protect the lower section.
I noticed the "pointed flake" on Randy's topo at the move over the roof had broken off, and I wasn't sure if that had happened recently.
I cleaned some dirt from the crack at the small roof but left the ferns in place, noting 1-2 blue Aliens protect after the mantle.
View of the likely location of the original 4th fixed pin, in center of photo. It was probably a baby angle straight up under the roof; orange stain visible there.
This spot will take a good small cam now (like a green alien or #1 TCU).
The former "pointed flake" has broken off, and the move over the roof is fairly hard.
I chose to place a new fixed pin, above the former level of the pointed flake, and hopefully above any holds useful for moving over the roof.
It may be difficult to reach for a short climber.
I think if the "pointed flake" had been missing on the FA, they may have chosen to place a pin there.
In a recent post (after my rebolting) on the supertopo.com forum [previous page on this thread], Scott Cosgrove explained the flake broke while he was leading it; he plunged and nearly decked! [and one of the formerly fixed pins pulled and he was saved from decking by a slider nut]
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jun 11, 2013 - 12:41pm PT
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Over the last number of years I have significantly changed my opinion on the use of pitons as fixed protection. Originally, I viewed pitons as a preferred and more natural means of fixed protection as they utilized crack features.
However, it has been my experience that fixed pins -- in the vast majority of cases -- eventually fail, often without obvious signs of having loosened. As a result, absent carrying a hammer to test a pin's security, fixed pins significantly increase the risk a leader takes.
A fixed piece of gear should be just that, and solid to boot. There seems no point in placing a dubious pin (or bolt for that matter) as fixed protection on a free climb.
The first pitch of Space Babble originally had a number of fixed pins that provided protection for the crux. These eventually failed (or merely fell out). Repeatedly replacing these will (over the long run) create significant pin scars that either allow for removable gear (good, I guess?), or become unusable.
In the interim, you have to climb the route (1st pitch at least) with pins and a hammer.
This is why I thought the "pin-bolt" was a viable middle ground approach. But, ultimately, absent a secure "clean" placement for vital protection, I view a bolt as better alternative than various "generations" of pitons that may not provide secure protection but continually damage the rock.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 11, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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The fixed gear that used to be on the first pitch was removed on rappel.
I believe it was Shultz for whatever reason he was thinking at the time?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jun 11, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
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So is the protection resolved? I'd like to try the original line in October.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jun 12, 2013 - 01:06am PT
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Cool that it's been done with the cams and Clint's piton looks good for a try at the missing hold/original line. Thanks.
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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Jun 12, 2013 - 10:18am PT
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These MC threads gets me psyched to go back. This route sounds much more serious than Stoner's. Somebody needs to go up there with the hammer and report back - Chad?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jun 12, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
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I went "up" there (on rappel) with a hammer, found many usable cams (as shown in my photos), and placed that one pin when I couldn't find a good cam placement for the move over the roof.
But I wasn't on lead.
We know that Terry led it without pins, but he's apparently very talented.
Chad is really solid, too, but my view of adequate cams may not quite measure up for him, because he's a bigger guy than I am.
Actually I think the only scary looking cams were the 1-2 blue Aliens.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Jun 14, 2013 - 02:50am PT
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I didnt get very high up. Got to about the first piece of pro, couldn't get anything solid, looked up at more sketchy protection all on 5.10+ friction which should be taken with a grain of salt and got skert. I don't think it's impossible climbing, I'd just prefer something solid between me and the ground. I didn't feel like I was going to get that.
Maybe it's worth another go in the future if I can actually find some regular climbing partners that aren't total lazy asses. Either way, it's a serious route and you had better approach it as such.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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bump
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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What a great thread.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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It seems we are back to the Pinbolt conversation after Clint decided to declare the protection good while on rappel and ended that conversation before. Obviously capable folks on the sharp end haven't been agreeing with his assessment and have been getting turned around.
Rather than placing a conventional bolt to provide lasting and reliable protection on the first pitch I invented the Pinbolt as an alternative that would maintain the original character of the climbing while solving the problems inherent in fixing and refixing conventional pitons. Time to go install one or two Pinbolts before any more scarring happens.
The concept is simple. Situate the Pinbolt in the placement and then drill through the hole and epoxy in a threaded stainless bolt to fix the Pinbolt in position as shown. A bit of work would be required to fill an angle sized hole but that shouldn't be difficult.
I have lead the first pitch twice already so I don't have a problem making a good decision in installing these anchors. You just need to know that you aren't going to deck from the crux moves which are very insecure.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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drill through the hole and epoxy in a threaded stainless bolt
Steve, I'm confused with the epoxy reference, are you talking about standard glue-in bolt epoxy?
Your photos look like a pretty small bolt, but the hole in the piton is also pretty small. If you're using these as glue-in bolts then you'd need a 3/8" hole for a 5/16" stainless bolt, or a 7/16" or 12mm hole for a 3/8" stainless bolt (of course actually you'd need the holes to be a bit larger than that since the head of an SDS bit is a bit larger than the stated size).
Why not just use a lower profile modern glue-in bolt such as the Bolt Products (Jim Titt) twisted-leg bolt (very similar to the Climbtech Wave bolt, but the Climbtech Wave bolt is another inch longer and slightly larger, so it'd be much easier to hand drill the Bolt Products twisted leg bolt). They'd be work to drill, but not super bad (particularly with the very low hole count).
If placed right where the piton was, they'd be super hard to spot (even harder than the original pitons). Here's profiles of the 12mm Twisted leg bolt vs. a 1/4" with Leeper, vs. a Petzl hanger with 3/8" 5-piece, and in comparison with pins.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Best to go modern for the protection, if you are drilling anyway. Though the pinbolt is a cool novelty piece.
Probably spent some quality time in the shop on that huh steve?
No reason not to add a ti glue in or a real live bolt. This is 2014, character of routes in terms of fixed pro is a lost cause.
Then the hoards of climbers waiting for real pro on the babble to send will do so.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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mucci- Are you still in love with mild steel split shaft bolts?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Yup, on Aid routes they are just fine, interspersed with modern 3/8ths bolts. Drilling 3/8ths on wall routes is something the new guard do with power drills, which is slowly becoming commonplace in Yosemite.
Your pin bolt is a smaller diameter SS carriage bolt is it not?
Still clipping a bolt and not a pin, so you already lost the character battle. Further, the only people that will see it are those that climb the route.
Hell Steve, just slug in your design and let the suitors clip you're vision.
Edit: You guys want something better than a fixed pin for pro. So you create a pinbolt to keep the essence and flavor.....I get it.
However, the draw is the climbing not the type of bolt.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Certainly no harm in trying the Pinbolt option, IMO. I am the only one putting any time into it anyhow.
Space Babble will never be a popular climb with the original number of fixed protection points. The handful of us that have climbed the route and appreciate it's bold and committing character should certainly be allowed to have a voice.
Leading all of Space Babble without a chalk bag BITD was likely my best face climbing outing in Yosemite. I love this route, no pro and all.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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p1: one pinbolt (or regular SS bolt) at the ".4" where I put the (shallow) blue Aliens would probably prevent a decking.
I believe a decent Alien or TCU would be the first pro, in the ".6" to protect reaching the ".4" spot.
After that, there is potential pro just under the fern.
Just over the fern is a deep finger slot. But I think you want your fingers in that instead of pro.
Next up is the orange baby angle pin scar. An Alien or TCU would go there.
But it is downflaring, so not fully bomber.
Next is the Lost Arrow I added just right of where the pointed flake broke off.
It is slightly shallow/flaring, so it might loosen over time.
So it might be a spot for a pinbolt or regular SS bolt.
Alternatively, if the 5.11 left variation is easier than the moves over the roof now,
a bolt could be placed on stance at the start of the 5.11.
At the (1) belay, one of the bolts is 3/8" Rawldrive, slightly rusty.
Should probably be pulled and replaced someday; I didn't have the tools to do it.
p2, p3. The pins seemed fine. They won't last forever, though.
p4. The first fixed pin is probably not too good, mainly because the flake is not very solid.
Seems like an ideal spot for a pinbolt or regular SS bolt.
p5, p6. No pins. At the (5) belay, a rusty 3/8" Rawldrive should be pulled and replaced at some point.
I didn't have the tools to pull it.
p7. A couple of summers ago, while on a mission to fix ropes down Tour de Force,
I placed a SS bolt at the stance where a fixed pin was marked on Randy's topo,
but no pin would fit there anymore.
As I recall, Kevin expressed approval for this at some point.
The general idea would be to "restore" the route back to the available fixed pro
(or equivalent quality clean pro) of the FA and early repeats.
I believe most folks support this goal.
The tricky part is how to potentially use drilling in a few locations
so that there is not an ongoing maintenance problem with fixed pins.
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