America...the newest third world country.

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Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

May 12, 2014 - 05:16pm PT

Being quite familiar with productivity I can assert that a close friend turned
around a dying company by bringing in new equipment and fabrication techniques.
Now the employees work overtime with gusto and they have seen meaningful
wage increases. Those that haven't can thank their poor education for not
enabling them to run the sophisticated machinery.

Pam

Social climber

San Clemente, CA

May 12, 2014 - 05:17pm PT

Just out of curiosity - are you all just venting or do you want another way of looking at this? I don't want to waste my time if you are just going to insult my republican way of looking at this.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

May 12, 2014 - 05:23pm PT

Just out of curiosity - are you all just venting or do you want another way of looking at this? I don't want to waste my time if you are just going to insult my republican way of looking at this.

I, for one, am not just "venting." As a philosopher, I fundamentally believe that reasoned argumentation must stand in place of armed conflict if we are to remain a civilized society.

Regarding "insulting" your "republican way" of looking at things, I don't presume to know what you mean by that. I try to avoid "insult," although I certainly will call a "way" of thinking "ridiculous" if it can be demonstrated to be ridiculous. Will that be "insulting" to you?

Or, perhaps I'll think that your "way" of thinking is cogent and not "republican."

There are all sorts of possibilities here. :-)

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

May 12, 2014 - 05:47pm PT

If I take the total amount of money spent on labor and divide it by the total number of hours worked, then divided this number by the total number of workers, and compared that figure to the total profits as calculated by total revenue minus total expenditures, then proceeded to show that wages have not increased in years yet profits have increased drastically, how have I skewed the data to give some outrageous result? Explain this please.

You're comparing a total (total revenue minus total expenditures) to an average, which is a meaningless comparison. More importantly, in a growing economy, most totals will likely increase, but not so necessarily for averages.

If the anti-business folks wanted a less absurd comparison, they might compare total compensation to total profit. Of course, their results would be less to their liking, and less inflammatory, so they don't go there.

John

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2014 - 06:08pm PT

Fort Mental...here is your answer.

http://money.msn.com/now/post--working-for-a-dollar-store-is-no-bargain

Gary

Social climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

May 12, 2014 - 06:10pm PT

You DO solve the problem by stopping the rich from stealing from the producers, though.

ABSOLUTELY!

But please explain how raising their taxes accomplishes this.

Raising taxes won't solve this. Only people organizing together to fight for what is rightfully theirs will solve that problem.

HighTraverse

Trad climber

Bay Area

May 12, 2014 - 06:42pm PT

Meanwhile the highly profitable NFL pays zero income taxes.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber

May 12, 2014 - 11:09pm PT

John posted

I'm not sure what "the politics of every dime of productivity increase by working Americans in the last 15+ years going to the top 1%" means. You mean the politics of an untruth? How do you determine where the productivity increases came from, or who obtained the benefits, without purporting to know who owns every share of every stock of every profitable corporation? How much of that productivity gain went, for instance, to pension funds? Are they in "the 1%?"

You're right, not every dime went to the top 1%. Thank you for splitting semantic hairs about an important issue while doing absolutely nothing to address the actual underlying facts which you know are true.

nah000

climber

canuckistan

May 13, 2014 - 05:37am PT

madbolter1, thanks for the effort you put into your discourse here. i couldn't agree more with you on this:

"... I fundamentally believe that reasoned argumentation must stand in place of armed conflict if we are to remain a civilized society."

now onto the argumentation portion! amongst a longer argument you wrote the following:

"There you have it: THE divide. You are either a communitarian or a libertarian. You either believe in a "pool" of resources that really is ultimately owned and must be managed by government, or you believe in individual property RIGHTS that must ever be protected by government from those that would encroach upon them."

this position seems surprisingly, even naively, black and white. are you really arguing that a person can only believe in one or the other? that it's not possible to believe that there are both elements that should be held and managed as a commons [ex. air, water, raw resources, some land, etc.] and elements that should be held and managed as private property [ex. discrete elements that are the result of a single individuals work]? and even more importantly that there can be no messy grey and overlapping area between these two poles of the commonly held and the individually owned?

given the rigour and reason you bring to bear on so many points of argumentation, this assertion that one can only be either a communitarian or a libertarian just seems completely and uncharacteristically simplistic and bizarre.

or am i miss[read]ing something?

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber

Pomfert VT

May 13, 2014 - 06:25am PT

I have noticed lately that the roads have really deteriorated. My recent road trip down south was an eye opener. 13 years of war and Too many years of of teabaggers forceing slashed budgets has our infastructure crumbling. 84 west was so rought I could barely keep it @ 65mph and I ended up with a loose caliper (bolt fell out) and a dented rim.

tooth

Trad climber

B.C.

May 13, 2014 - 09:29am PT

I've noticed that too. Just spent the week in Salt Lake City and was glad to get home to Canada because the roads were so horribly rough and potholed down there.

Wade Icey

Trad climber

www.alohashirtrescue.com

May 13, 2014 - 11:02am PT

I heard that Potholes have been legalized in Boulderado

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2014 - 11:14am PT

Potholes are not in the Constitution...f*#k the potholes, clean water, clean air, civil rights, medicare, medicaid, SS, kids lunch program, public schools, police, fire protection, national forest, parks, BLM...they are not in the Constitution.

madbolter1

Big Wall climber

Denver, CO

May 13, 2014 - 12:21pm PT

Thank you, and, btw, GREAT handle: "canuckistan" indeed. LOL

I'd love to take credit for some original thought here, but I'm just parroting Thomas Jefferson: "In a republican nation, whose citizens are to be led by reason and persuasion and not by force, the art of reasoning becomes of the first importance" (quoted from Introduction to Logic, Tenth Edition, Copi & Cohen).

So, I truly appreciate you taking the time to ask clarifying questions rather than to just derisively dismiss my arguments.

The struggle on a forum like this is to find the balance between "too long" of posts and posts that are so superficial that crucial argumentative steps are missing. In this case, it appears that I've glossed over the issue of what "ownership" is really about.

The coming post (for the length of which I apologize in advance) will hopefully fill in some of the "potholes" I left regarding ownership, and it should also address the laughable posts about "potholes are not in the constitution," and so forth.

It will take awhile to compose, but I hope to provide an adequate account of resources that are "commonly held" vs. the nature of private property. Time to patch some freedom potholes.

Thanks again.

Bob D'A

Trad climber

Taos, NM

Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2014 - 12:29pm PT

Madbolter...and in your long winded responses I haven't seen anything that looks like a solution to our modern day issues and problems.

Everyman for himself.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

May 13, 2014 - 12:35pm PT

Randisi, you pose a valid question. I used to think it was like Canada,
but then I went there and they were able to make a proper martini. Then
I went to a supposedly bonafide second world country, Argentina, and decided
that was probably wishful thinking, especially based on their aviation system.
Now I say Costa Rica although we would do well to emulate them, wouldn't we?
No army and good affordable health care. I call that a First Plus Country.
How come Mexicans aren't sneaking into Costa Rica en masse?