Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2014 - 11:31pm PT
|
Whaal, there was a killer in my hometown when I was growing up, by the name of J.B. Morse. He lived about a mile from my house and came home one night and bludgeoned his sister and mother to death. He and another guy from my high school, Raymond Goedecke (same offense - family-bludgeoning, a few years after Joe), made it onto someone's top ten "worst" killers list. [references on request only].
Both got a lot of mentions in the news due to the idiosyncrasies of California law and the fact that both were so young when they did their killing.
Joe hadn't been in prison all that long when he strangled a fellow inmate/trustee in an argument over cigarettes. Ray got out of prison and killed a woman who had befriended him while he was in prison for killing his family.
Ray got out of prison eventually,a second time, and died. Joe is still in prison and has written a book, but has "yet" to kill again.
YMMV
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
If the death penalty applied on Saturdays, Mondays, and Wednesdays,
and 15 too life on Fridays, Sundays, Tuesdays and Thursdays,
what do you think that would do to the murder rates on the respective days?
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
Every person on Death Row found a way to kill someone, and damn few of them are medical professionals. None of them had the resources the state has on their side, either.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
|
|
TGT...I'll gladly pay you tuesday for a hamburger today....
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
I could go round up a few junkies who could get a needle into anybody or any body.
And, boy, will they work cheap!
|
|
Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
|
|
When we rid the world of those that would rape, torture, maim and kill innocents, we make it a better place to be.
That's each and everyone of us.
We can ALL be trained, coerced, brainwashed, etc into doing these things.
Don't ever believe it's a matter between those that would and 'us'.
Each and everyone of us. Every single one.
Maybe Gandhi, Mother Theresa and a few of their stature are exceptions.
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
Those who believe we can kill our way out of a problem are part of that problem. The idea that killing is a solution is the problem. The state legitimizing that idea doesn't exactly help.
You can execute everyone who kills, but you can't execute everyone who is about to kill. As long as the meme of 'killing as solution' is celebrated and promoted, as it certainly is on this thread, we'll have plenty who reach for killing-as-solution.
True, an executed person cannot kill again.
In a system where 4% of those executed were innocent, they can't be exonerated, either.
The more a society executes, the more innocents will be executed.
Those who support the death penalty also support the killing of these innocents.
See sentence 1.
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
We should kill the ill?
Not a new idea. I believe that was put into vigorous practice last century.
Plus - statistically this simply isn't true at all.
The military has soundly proven that the capacity to kill finds a good home in just about all of us.
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
Several innocent persons are dead under the cloak of law. Wrongfully executed.
What more needs to be said?
What is the difference in your lives, happiness, and security if a perp is locked up forever rather than killed? Are your lives enhanced by the perp’s death?
I don’t want the government to kill criminals on my behalf. The death penalty serves no beneficial purpose. It doesn't make me safer. Or happier. Or more secure.
For those of you with a Christian perspective, consider this. Although sanctioned in the Bible, capital punishment limits the time the perp has to find the road to salvation. If by spending one’s natural life in an 8 X 10 foot cell, more bad guys/gals can be saved. Wouldn't that be a good thing?
g
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
Several innocent persons are dead under the cloak of law. Wrongfully executed.
Name one in the last 50 years since the death penalty was re-instituted.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2014 - 10:16pm PT
|
Why yes Cragman. One of the first things I did when I heard about it on the news was to check up on what the Lockett had done.
So, I'm going to count you as a "no" on the guillotine and a "yes" on torture when the circumstances justify it.
You are not alone, though as I said above I vacillate, I certainly have had the thought that some person deserved to be tortured.
I'm not sure just how Christian that is, though.
I knew we'd find some common ground if we just kept at it. The so-called "media" is an abomination.
Quite different from a Christian nation.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
TGT
toss a hardball will you?
This one's too easy
Eighteen people have been proven innocent and exonerated by DNA testing in the United States after serving time on death row. They were convicted in 11 states and served a combined 229 years in prison – including 202 years on death row – for crimes they didn’t commit. http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/The_Innocent_and_the_Death_Penalty.php
The latest one in 2012
These are proven by DNA evidence. Which doesn't include those where witnesses later recanted their testimony.
A specific case
Mr. Ochoa and Mr. Danziger were subsequently convicted of the crime. Both convictions grew out of a false confession by Mr. Ochoa. It was later discovered that his confession was coerced and that interrogators had threatened him with the death penalty. Years after their convictions, letters detailing the crime were sent to the police, to then-Governor George W. Bush’s office, and the District Attorney’s Office. The author of the letters, Achim Marino, had apparently undergone a religious conversion while in prison on three other convictions, and felt obligated to confess to the Pizza Hut rape/murder. The DNA evidence from the original crime scene was retested. It exculpated both Mr. Ochoa and Mr. Danziger, while implicating Mr. Marino.
|
|
zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2014 - 10:35pm PT
|
I have from time to time wondered, Who Killed Davey Moore? Certainly wasn't Archie (parenthetically the only boxer to fight both Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali).
Stephen Gordon and his father had ringside seats at on that fateful night. Stephen recalls: “I remember the atmosphere in Dodger Stadium was electric. Davey was winning the early rounds and then Ramos started coming on. In the tenth round Ramos dropped Davey and his head hit the turnbuckle and ring post. He somehow made it to his feet and was able to make it to the end of the round. The fight was stopped between rounds.
“Davey did an interview with Don Dunphy in the ring before walking back to his dressing room. I was standing against the wall in the corner of the dressing room with my dad while Davey was talking to reporters. I heard him say that he had an off night and that he was looking forward to a rematch and regaining the title. Then all of a sudden he started holding his head and said: ‘Oh man, it hurts so bad,’ and then he collapsed.”
Davey died two days later from the whiplash to his brain stem.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
Name one in the last 50 years since the death penalty was re-instituted.
Johnny Frank Garrett 1992
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
|
|
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
How does one who strives to live by Christ's example justify supporting the death penalty?
Seems pretty simple to me. Or are we somehow able to tell ourselves that the "first cast stone" bible scenario was different?
|
|
Anastasia
climber
Home
|
|
No and... Some people are not human to deserve a humane way... When a person enjoys killing, and that person took their time to making your loved one suffer... If that happened to my son, I will kill them with my bare hands.
I debate the death penalty with myself all the time and yet knowing love, how precious and world changing it is... I know how the victims family might feel and would grant them whatever they want.
Evil is evil and... Yeah... I say do whatever is needed to keep us safe from folks that enjoy giving pain.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
Anastasia
I have lost a son due to human malfeasance but in a different way, not murder. He too suffered.
I share at least some of your pain.
I have felt your anger and rage and grief. The one responsible will never be held to account. I will never have closure.
I cannot speak about wanting someone to be executed for murder but I can argue some facts.
It is well proven that the death penalty is not a deterrent to crime. Locking someone away for life without parole removes them permanently from society. In my mind that is sufficient.
|
|
pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
|
|
Locking someone away for life without parole removes them permanently from society. In my mind that is sufficient.
Laws change. Manson lives because of this.
Just because an individual is sentenced to death or life in prison without the possibility of parole, it does not guarantee that one day a law may pass that will allow his/her freedom.
As of 2013, there are 741 offenders (including 20 women) on California's death row. Of those, 126 involved torture before murder, 173 killed children, and 44 murdered police officers.
Because California's death penalty was enacted through the voter-initiative process, the only way to replace it is through a voter-approved ballot measure. An attempt to remove the death penalty in 2012, Proposition 34, was defeated with 53% (11,400,000 registered voters) of the vote against it.
More effort needs to be put into the efficiency of implementing capital punishment. These torturers and child killers would not have the same mercy the bleeding hearts on this forum afford them. Believe it.
|
|
Tvash
climber
Seattle
|
|
Yes, killers kill, sometime cruelly. That is not an argument for more killing.
Neither is the argument that a killer who has served his sentence may one day be released justification for killing the 4% on death row who are innocent.
I suppose some might have to speak with the families of those innocent who have been executed to really get that.
I don't need to go quite that distance, personally.
Ah, well, collateral damage, eh?
The very same process of dehumanization many killers employ in their practice.
The problem with killing as punishment is fundamental. I believe we, as a species, need to walk away from killing as a solution, and I'm not talking about REAL (not 'stand your ground bullshit') self defense, here.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!