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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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I'm lazy, and I'll bet that someone has this data readily available to them.
What countries have very low violence rates, and what is believed by experts to account for the low rates?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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The notion of armed defense against the government is utterly ridiculous and only exists in white middle age male fantasies, nut balls, and the mentally ill.
That is what Gaddafi and Assad thought.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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With well over 9000 gun murders each year in the USA.
THIS IS NOT RANDOM. It happens everyday..
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apogee asked: "What do you think about the most recent compilation (via healyje) for suggestions of gun control, couchmaster?"
Healyje clearly trusts politicians a lot more than I do. I feel an armed, educated and involved citizenry is a critical part of our constitutions checks and balances.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I feel an armed, educated and involved citizenry is a critical part of our constitutions checks and balances I noticed you omitted "sane"
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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This will fix all of American's problems. Rebublicans have always said need to back to the thinking and times of Reagan.
Let’s bring back those good old days especially the old TV shows. The 60’s was a great time for all Americans until Hippies came along and started messing things up and then they turned into commies with help from Russian and the Chinese protesting the Viet Nam war.
TV shows like that perfect little community of Mayberry back in the 60’s. That’s the kind of shows that we need. No “dancing for the stars”, let’s see 4 or 5 of the same just different nights, 8 police shows showing or teaching violence to our kids and about terrorism, 5 talent shows, soaps, Sports that’s OK. Football players become brain dead in their later years. So that’s OK. but that is what the sport is about Win by any means.
But shows like “The Andy Griffith Show” or “Mayberry R.F.D” and “Return to Mayberry” that’s what America needs; I am looking at a re-run now.
Wait a minute, Hmm? No blacks, don’t see any Thai or Chinese or other Asians, where are the Mexicans, Hey! No East Indian or Middle East people as well or other ethic people in the show, no lesbian or gays either? No body walking done the street smoking Pot, OH! Wait there is a drunk; signs of the time I guess. This show is about Aunt Bee getting all the women in town to protest about the men not doing their fair share of cleaning the dishes the men finally gave in. Hmm! wondering if that was done on purpose to get women to vote for better rights or equality?
Hell! With this; going back to watching something more intelligent “Jerry Springer show”
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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fear said
I'm for "safety precautions and weapons control" in the case of training people the proper ways to use various weapons. In other words I see Gun Control as necessary to properly educate people on how to handle and use firearms so that accidental deaths are minimized. Like getting a license for a car. I see NO need to ban any type of hand-held semi-automatic firearm of any caliber. None.
You are being entirely contradictory. You are saying the only "safety precautions" needed is education but in the next sentence you say that options should only be limited to semi-automatic weapons. You believe in gun control. Just say it. "I believe in gun control." It's not a hard thing to say and it would be more honest than the bizarre line you and most "pro-gun" people keep trying to sell. You and I do not disagree on gun control. We do not disagree on gun education. I, too, believe that people should be trained in gun safety. I, too, believe that people should be able to own semi-automatic firearms. I just also believe there is likely extra safety to be gained from tighter controls on who can purchase firearms and under what conditions. Will certain criminals with enough money and the right connections always be able to obtain illegal firearms? Yes. Is that an argument for letting some dorky psycho kid quickly and easily purchase an armory's worth of assault weapons and ammo? No, obviously it isn't.
The reality is that had there been more controls, more opportunities for scrutiny, James Holmes likely would have been caught before he attacked just like so many of these terrorist wanna-bes are busted by the Feds before they pull off their harebrained scheme. Pretty much anyone who came into contact with Holmes knew there was something not right with him. He got turned down at least one gun club without hesitation. Someone would have flagged him and scratched the surface and there could have been an intervention.
Fear continued
Hand-held semi-automatic firearms are not magic death rays. They require a significant amout of training to really use effectively. I've used them all and still have to train on a regular basis to be any good.
Interesting, since it seems to me that almost none of the people who have perpetrated these mass killings were well trained in the use of firearms other than the most recent one and the guy on the Army base a few years ago. It doesn't take a master marksman to pull a trigger as fast as your finger will go blindly into a crowd of people and hurt someone.
And for those of you who keep telling themselves: "It never could have been predicted!" Then why does it keep happening? I predict we'll have another mass shooting pretty soon. I'm f*#king Nostradamus.
fear said EXACTLY! Your 9/11 example is perfect. No fancy weapons were used, unless you want to count "box cutters". 3000+ people snuffed out in terror with not a single shot fired. It could happen again tomorrow.
So to be clear: You don't think that there should be a no-fly list, airport security or baggage checks? Is that what you're saying? That since "it could happen tomorrow" there is no reason to try to stop it?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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The gun, the box cutter, the bomb, whatever, is just the tool.
It is the THREAT that matters.
And the threat is the evil mind created by an individual so abused or so neglected and so disenfranchised by society that such desperate acts actually seem somehow reasonable or "justified".
Treat the illness not the symptoms.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Treat the illness not the symptoms.
Ron, how can our society do better are treating the illness so these things don't happen?
These guys are even identified in advance by psychiatrists, one notified the police.
But how can the police, properly notified in advance, "arrest or detain" when no crime
has yet to be committed?
It's not against the law to be diagnosed as mentally unstable.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I said treat the illness, not identify those already victims.
We have to endeavor to create a just and rewarding world that people want to be a part OF rather than escape FROM.
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monolith
climber
albany,ca
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And until this fairy tale utopia exists.....
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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The gun, the box cutter, the bomb, whatever, is just the tool.
It is the THREAT that matters.
And the threat is the evil mind created by an individual so abused or so neglected and so disenfranchised by society that such desperate acts actually seem somehow reasonable or "justified".
Treat the illness not the symptoms.
I MUST AGREE WTIH THIS.
PT Ron is right on here.
It's not against the law to be diagnosed as mentally unstable.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE LAWS. THAT'S NOT THE POINT.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Dr. F: Fix what? We have it pretty damned good in this country all the way around IMO. I'm glad we have active interested people examining the minutia and details to help steer the ship. If we were to start looking at the good instead of the bad, we'd realize that we have it 99% good. I don't think we are doing too bad in the goverment area either. Not sure what you want to fix. The checks and balances in our system are working. My personal opinions and horror about it being a bad idea for our country to go so deeply in dept, are looked at publicly and discussed ad nauseum by experts and novices alike. I'm sure we can get to a proper and correct course. I'm not so megalomaniac to believe I'm always right. Maybe going deeply into debt because we want to keep spending and can't force ourselves to slow down is the right thing to do. I don't believe it but can't really say. I fear for our country and our children who must pay that debt. Checks and balances help keep us on track.
Norton said: "Ron, how can our society do better are treating the illness so these things don't happen?"
I don't know if any Jew can answer this question the way you wish it to be answered Norton. Jewish history for many centuries is littered with pograms that make some of the crazy stuff we see in other modern country's look tame. Historically, if a king or a President has the power of life and death over you, sooner or later it always seems to go badly.
So maybe a few nutcases slip through the cracks ....and unless we become a totalitarian state, that's the price we pay. In fact, even in totalitarian and repressive states they can see that kind of thing. I believe that the real question you, and all of us, need to ask is this: if we can have a few citizen nutjobs slip by and do these horrible things, could not a political nutjob slip by as well? Before you answer, I worked/volunteered at the VA hospital for 4 years: primarily with mental patients. None of those gentlemen started out with mental issues, NONE. (that were identified, they were all accepted into the military who, after a battery of tests, called them normal) Some were more normal than you, but like a boat that seemed in otherwise perfect condition: just sprung a leak.
Here it is: What happens if a sitting President, who had 55 years of sanity but then "springs a leak" so to speak? Typically the gentlemen drawn to that job are drawn by the power and the control. (They are really not like you and me to start with. What normal person would want to be savaged, all but drawn and quartered with personal attacks like we see in every primary?) If a citizen nutjob can cause the deaths of 12-15 people so easily, how many deaths could a Stalin, Hitler, or Pol Pot cause. Or the next President of the US who goes crazy from the pressure? It's not always as easy to identify crazy as you may think.
Checks and balances John. Checks and balances. And despite some of our active and interesting online arguments, I trust each and every one of you more than any politician. If anyone is to be armed, I want it to be you. You, my loved ones, my neighbors. All normal, non-power hungry people. They have arms. So should you. Not to use, just to balance the equation so we can keep having a civil discussion, as Moof indicates above.
Regards
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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and 911 could have been prevented if only the Bush Administration had ordered that all steel fully lockable doors be installed in all commercial airliners.
Just exactly as Israel had done years earlier.
National Security is often more about proactively anticipating than after the fact reacting
Bush had been Prez for 9 months when 9/11 happened. It seems that the onus of following something Israel did "years earlier" would fall on the Clinton Administration.
Bush was far, far, far from our best Prez but not everything can be blamed on him. When you do, you lose credibility.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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So to be clear: You don't think that there should be a no-fly list, airport security or baggage checks? Is that what you're saying? That since "it could happen tomorrow" there is no reason to try to stop it?
A little OT but ok...
Post 9-11 airport security and baggage checks are an absurd waste of time and money. I understand it's to make the Sheeple feel "safe" because the nanny-state is going to catch all the bad people. Makes 'em all warm and fuzzy putting their shoes back on.
I do agree that basic metal detectors and bag scanning is a good thing to possibly catch the average dumbass terrorist-wannabe with an IQ under 100. It's not going to prevent those truly committed with evil intentions.
The best bang for the buck? Hire intelligent, trained, heavily armed guards to profile likely suspects. Actually interact with passengers. That's right, actually question people of interest.
It would take about 20 minutes for a small trained group of nut cases to take over any one of a thousand smaller regional airports in this country and take whatever jets they wanted. It isn't hard to figure out with a little creativity, especially if you're not planning on getting out alive. Ask yourself why would someone who wanted to just kill people and steal planes go through the terminal? Why even steal passenger jets?
It hasn't happened because nobody has wanted to do it. Real evil is rare. We can be thankful for that.
Our best defense against evil intent is to be aware and be ready to react and help each other. No government or police force has ever existed that shows up in time when insanity strikes. Hence, regulations and laws are good only for those that follow them and will never affect those that don't.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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fear fantasized No government or police force has ever existed that shows up in time when insanity strikes.
Except for the many, many times when they have.
and continued... Hence, regulations and laws are good only for those that follow them and will never affect those that don't.
Again, back to my point in an earlier post. You can always make the argument that well funded, well trained super criminals will be able to execute some crime, obtain some item or perpetrate some horrible misdeed. But in reality there are far, far more ill prepared, ill trained and poorly funded people who would do bad things given the opportunity but aren't afforded the opportunity BECAUSE they aren't smart enough or connected enough to skirt the law/regulation and not get caught (ask any prosecutor...our jails are filled with morons, not super criminals). Holmes would have had a much harder time doing as much damage had he not been afforded the freedom to buy as many high powered weapons as he wanted so easily and so cheaply. You can't really argue that had he walked into that theater with a glock that the outcome would have been exactly the same. Additionally, laws and regulations create opportunities for intervention by forcing people to go through background checks that weed people out or alert authorities that someone might warrant some further questioning (not unlike the security guards interviewing passengers in airports as you suggest). Had the people who Holmes tried to obtain training from or buy guns from been put in the position of having to report their concerns to law enforcement, he might have been investigated earlier and then preempted entirely.
Unfortunately, our pro-gun culture subscribes to the absurd paranoia that part of the purpose of stockpiling weapons is to be able to hide their existence from the government so that we are ready for the inevitable armed revolution/race war. And then we act shocked...SHOCKED...when someone uses those stockpiles to actually hurt people. Who could have seen this coming? The problem MUST be that Holmes didn't attend a gun safety class!
fear concluded Our best defense against evil intent is to be aware and be ready to react and help each other.
So an ounce of prevention is worthless and we should always be reactive not proactive. Or in the case of any of these shootings...simply do nothing and go on pretending like the next time won't happen.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Piton Ron said Treat the illness not the symptoms.
In healthcare we both treat illnesses AND symptoms. Often times illnesses aren't curable, but symptoms can be minimized. Furthermore, pretty much every state in this nation has cut mental health services in favor of avoiding raising people's taxes. Remember your "treat the illness" motto the next time you are choosing between politicians who are pledging to avoid raising your taxes no matter what the cost and arguing that things like mental health and medicaid are "luxuries we cannot currently afford."
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Wisconsin gun man dies of self inflicted gunshot to the head.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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So an ounce of prevention is worthless and we should always be reactive not proactive. Or in the case of any of these shootings...simply do nothing and go on pretending like the next time won't happen.
Sigh... I can't argue anymore with low reading comprehension...
Time to go climbing... Although it's F'ing HOT.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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From the Second Amendment:
"...necessary to the security of a free State..."
Hi Desert DJ writes:
"...forcing people to go through background checks that weed people out or alert authorities that someone might warrant some further questioning"
"forcing" "weed people out"
That doesn't sound like a "free State" to me. That's a totalitarian approach to government.
You can't be free while under the control of a totalitarian government.
Remember, our rights are granted by God. Not the government.
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