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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
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Jaybro +++.
However, the guy was draped in body armor, had a ton of bullets, 1/2 ton of guns. Killed 12, wounded 58 and counting. It's kinda hard to keep guns out of it, but go ahead and start the no-gun arguments thread. I'll participate.
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John M
climber
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
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Dean.. I don't know why you would agree with Jaybro since you were the first to make it about carrying a weapon. Here is your post in case you forgot.
A perfect example of why I carry everywhere I go, no matter what.
And please Dean.. I am not attacking you. I am just wondering.
I personally don't think it is solely about who carries, and how many guns there are. There are countries where gun ownership is high yet have much much less gun violence. I believe that it is more about the near worship of violence that this country has. Even our cartoons for children are violent. We surround ourselves with violence and then wonder why people are violent.
Shack..
If the answer is that it would be OK for cops to shoot back but not armed citizens...can you please explain your logic?
It is not necessarily my logic, but generally the police have a lot more training.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
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All I can say is condolences to the friends and families of the victims and prayers for those injured. . .
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bullfrog
Trad climber
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
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The thread was Dark Knight in Colorado. Apogees last comment on it was ...Why does this keep happening? 2 different things entirely.
If Apogee speaks up and says this is where he want's the thread to go then I will not argue with him on that.
If you would like to open up a "Shack and Bullfrog pummel the living *%^$ out of each other because Shack has a chip on his shoulder" thread, we can do that too but I think it would be of limited interest to the overall community and would definitely need a shorter name if it were to survive long.
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John M
climber
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
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Dean.. I don't climb anymore. Partly because of health problems. I love the outdoors and Most of my friends are climbers so I hang with climbers. so I don't have much to say about climbing anymore. I still love Joshua Tree and Yosemite and I chime in where I can, but I haven't climbed in 10 years. whats your point? Do I not get to post? Is that it?
you have the red button on this one. Call it. If you want me out of here then I am gone. otherwise.. would you knock off the "predictable" eye roll posts. you don't like being attacked for who you are. Neither do I.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
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I went back to the OP looking to see if my comment belongs here or somewhere else. I think it belongs here.
This matter of someone producing a gun in a crowded place seems to be a frequent occurrence. In the army recruits are trained to crawl under live machine gun fire. We need to consider training among our civilians. Getting up and running for a door makes one an immediate target. What would the shooter face if everyone merely dropped for cover behind the seat in front of them? He would have to just shoot at the seats without knowing exactly where the people were. If everyone is down anyone who does have a weapon would have a better shot. The shooter is the only one up.
Another thing, Apparently the shooter kept moving. That means someone responding has to be up and following. All the shooter had to worry about was accidently walking past someone who was armed.
If people were trained to take cover and they knew a security person was in the projection booth with a rifle, we would be ready for the next level of violence in the US.
American suicide bombers.
When a culture goes south, there really is no end.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
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one of the women killed yesterday had narrowly escaped unharmed in a similar rampage last month in a Toronto mall only to be gunned down in Aurora. She probably brought it on herself.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
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American suicide bombers.
When a culture goes south, there really is no end.
Sadly,
Coming tho a theater, mall, sporting event near you.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
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It used to be that crAzY people knew their place in society.
....in 'special schools' or hidden away institutions.
NOW crAzY people are 'assimilated' into normal settings using meds, counseling, tolerance, multiculturalism, etc.
but guess what? Often they do not fit in anyway and endure many years of ridicule and harassment...until they explode.
This happened to Cho at Virginia Tech and I suspect this gunman too.
Too many ticking time bombs out there, many with college educations
Witness the "Political Correctness" in the Ft Hood shooting. His whole chain of command new he was a threat. So did the FBI. But, cultural sensitivities trumped common sense.
Same principal applies.
How you balance this with the potential to lock someone away just because someone doesn't like them will always be a point of contention, but clearly the pendulum has swung to one of its limits.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:50pm PT
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but clearly the pendulum has swung to one of its limits.
I disagree TGT
"Give me liberty or give me death"
I will always much prefer our society err on the side of risk and individual liberty over security at a high price.
But then I like to climb mountains.. it's just Genetic I suppose.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 20, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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Way back in the 70's there was a perfect storm with the confluence of those espousing the rights of the mentally ill and those wishing to limit the cost of incarcerating them. The trend has continued ever since.
Even if this guy's mother who's immediate reaction was "you've got the right guy" wanted to force him into treatment or confinement, she probably could not have done so.
Hassan was able to pull off mass murder because it would have been career suicide for anyone in command to admit that he was what he clearly stated he was, repeatedly, and take action.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jul 21, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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Lee Oswald went to the theatre too. It's not the guns, it's theatres that should be be held accountable.
A little digression, but how many people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were in theatres when the whip came down?
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Jul 21, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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For what reason would you shoot someone?
Myself? Self defense would be the only reason I can think of.
Why do other people shoot people?
Jealousy.
Love.
Disrespect.
Traffic.
Bad day at the office.
No reason.
Football games.
Financial collapse.
Robbery.
Desperation.
Job description (law enforcement).
Pride.
It's hip.
Fame.
Religion.
___fill in the blank.
Cause they can.
Mental illness.
Television.
Motion pictures.
Ignorance.
How many of the above would work for you? Hopefully none; but next week someone might snap and kill for any of the above.
There is no doubt in my mind that literature, film, television and music have influenced the body count.
Film critics have noted the dark, anxiety-fueled themes of "The Dark Knight Rises," which reminded some of the atmosphere in the days after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. It had been projected to be one of the biggest films of the year, and theaters around the world began showing it at 12:01 a.m. Friday.
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John M
climber
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Jul 21, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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Way back in the 70's there was a perfect storm with the confluence of those espousing the rights of the mentally ill and those wishing to limit the cost of incarcerating them. The trend has continued ever since.
Even if this guy's mother who's immediate reaction was "you've got the right guy" wanted to force him into treatment or confinement, she probably could not have done so.
Hassan was able to pull off mass murder because it would have been career suicide for anyone in command to admit that he was what he clearly stated he was, repeatedly, and take action.
Agreed.. but I don't know what the solution is.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Jul 21, 2012 - 12:08am PT
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I had a friend that was murdered in cold blood for no reason in 2007. I still feel the same way....life is a beautiful thing. It is magic in front of your face every day....a miracle. No one except yourself has the power to make you believe the world to be a dark and scary place.
I do not believe we need to legislate an imaginary bubble of safety around us. I also do not feel the need to own a gun....and I live in the ghetto.
I am tired of violence too...we all are. The reasons such violence exist in this country has nothing to do with guns. We can only have the freedom to do good if we also have the freedom to do bad.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2012 - 12:15am PT
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NOW crAzY people are 'assimilated' into normal settings using meds, counseling, tolerance, multiculturalism, etc.
One may or may not agree with 'mainstreaming' - but the original proponents never envisioned the wholesale and complete dismantling of our national mental health system. The Reagan administration used the introduction of mainstreaming to fully slash federal mental health funding and change the remainder from dedicated funding to block grants to states. The net effect? The near instant dismantling of our mental health infrastructure, turning patients out onto the streets, and a return to treating the mentally ill who cause problems as criminals.
So now our ill-equipped and already overwhelmed county jails and state prisons serve the role. This was deliberate republican "smaller guberment" policy doing what it does best - attempting to cut in all the wrong places. Cut oil, arms or ag subsidies? Nope. Cut services which actually protect or assist our most vulnerable? Easy pickings - total c*#ks@ckers.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jul 21, 2012 - 12:19am PT
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It used to be that crAzY people knew their place in society.
Yeah, the desert outside of LA or outside your bedroom window.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Don't take your guns to town son
Leave your guns at home!
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Jul 21, 2012 - 12:27am PT
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Dean,
I ain't buying your logic.
Your first posts were all about you and your guns. Why announce it?
Now 60 billion people could be aware you are heavy.
You seem to be coming off as Rowdy Yates in an old Rawhide episode.
Packing a heater doesn't quite qualify as the most important thing you could do to protect your family and loved ones. If anything it would probably have gotten them eliminated in the theater; unless it's an 88mm which would have raised the body count ten fold and then some.
Your training is in rescue right?
LEO training? Not once but daily?
Military?
I don't have a problem with private gun ownership (legal). Attitude is the problem.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2012 - 12:34am PT
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"If Apogee speaks up and says this is where he want's the thread to go then I will not argue with him on that."
Thank you for the deference...but far be it from me to direct where this or any other ST thread should go. I could easily have predicted where this thread has gone thusfar, as there have been plenty of other nearly identical incidences that have resulted in threads with virtually the same direction.
ST is what it is, and most of the time, I'm good with that.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2012 - 12:38am PT
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"...it is precisely these kinds of incidents that motivate many of us to carry weapons."
I suspect that it is because of the presence of weapons that incidents like this keep happening.
Yeah....I know, Cragman.
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