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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 18, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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Lolli
You are right. I am not projecting my own thoughts and feelings into TD. I am using the thoughts and feelings he is describing to me.
WBraun
I don't expect valid data, sound reasoning or conclusions following from valid data and sound reasoning from you... LOL... I see you as Largo's, God's, "the-main-server-of-life's" and maybe also TD's own spinning choirboy... There is no shame in being a spinning choirboy in the world of today, but it does not add anything to our knowledge. It's your choice.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 18, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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I don't expect valid data, sound reasoning or conclusions following from valid data and sound reasoning from you... LOL... I see you as Largo's, God's, "the-main-server-of-life's" and maybe also TD's own spinning choirboy... There is no shame in being a spinning choirboy in the world of today, but it does not add anything to our knowledge. It's your choice.
--
The reason we chide and heckle and laugh at you Marlow and tell you to get back into that corner is owing to your glaring blind spot: That it never apparently occurred to you that there is "knowledge" beyond measuring, and that said knowledge is built on valid data and is not a refutation of sound reasoning nor yet is it the imaginings of a "spinning choirboy," whoever that is. But wait, there's more. You've gone so far as to place intellectual virtue on your own blind spot, and that is what makes some of us wonder if you're not working the "shine" when no one is looking.
That'll kill you, Marlow.
JL
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jstan
climber
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Mar 18, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
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"knowledge" beyond measuring,
Not following you John.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 18, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
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Largo
You say:
“The reason we chide and heckle and laugh at you Marlow and tell you to get back into that corner is owing to your glaring blind spot: That it never apparently occurred to you that there is "knowledge" beyond measuring, and that said knowledge is built on valid data and is not a refutation of sound reasoning nor yet is it the imaginings of a "spinning choirboy," whoever that is. But wait, there's more. You've gone so far as to place intellectual virtue on your own blind spot, and that is what makes some of us wonder if you're not working the "shine" when no one is looking.”
My answer:
You are as usual setting up your own strawman and then start talking to him.
I'm not talking valid data just as "measurable" data, whatever that is to you. In this instance the words of TD and TD's own reasoning are valid data as good as any.
Show me the blindness you indicate Largo, and do it in an honest way. Use my own words as data, use your own reasoning and conclude in a way that gives other people the chance to examine your reasoning. What you do now is what you usually do. You conclude from the top of your ladder of inference. Your reasoning is sloppy and hermetically self-confirming.
My reasoning is serving me well. My reasoning has a self-healing effect since I never have to fight imagined persons, strawmen, ghosts and windmills.
You're absolutely free to chide and heckle and laugh at me. Your problem is that this is telling a story about you, and not about me. If I had been chiding and heckling and laughing at you, that would have told a story about me. There are some simple facts in life you still have to learn Largo.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 18, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
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More generally, we just don’t know what to do with the internet and end up wasting a lot of time,
I have to ask. How many of us discuss all of the time with others questions like social security and the, now, many wars? Is it not true in this age of the automobile and tract houses - we generally avoid talking to each other? Discuss only safe topics?
Then we come to the internet where many people adopt a personality entirely unlike the one they display face to face – and try to talk important issues. Are we surprised by the mess that results?
We are able to talk about unimportant issues, like whether it is raining out. Everyone has a great time. What is the difference between the important and the unimportant?
One difference is that for the important, one feels the need to correct others. What one person thinks is true affects us. This is a very touchy issue in any forum, even when everyone is displaying their true face to face personality. Many is the colloquim I have sat through where someone not understanding the issue has advanced something clearly wrong and were just ignored. Correcting their understanding was not the purpose of the meeting. Even something as vital( to them) of their understanding, was not considered important to the group.
In a reasoned culture, data is considered one avenue for reaching agreement. So here we find yet another barrier to good use of the internet, in addition to that presented by the faux personality problem. A significant number of people place no value or credence in data.
We could just admit defeat and give up. Unfortunately nature’s answer then obtains. People just start killing each other. As people are doing now, most places where you look,
One form, albeit a rather unimaginative one, of population control.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Mar 18, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
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Marlow, you need to bone up on your terms. "Straw man" arguments are not what you are saying - unless you are using this term to indicate that I have not refuted your "position" on reality, as logical and well reasoned as you purport it to be.
In fact what you have repeatedly offered are argumentum ad hominem attacks on spirituality whereby you ascribe all kinds of silly, faux literary slogans and superstitious religious traits to anything that does not square with a quantifying, bottom-up materialist model. And even going the next step and insisting that for the lack of physical evidence, all things/non-things spiritual are merely imagined. You apparently missed the Reynoso's argument about the folly of doing this - but I won't repeat it here.
Are so-called spiritual realms concrete in the way that Half Dome and El Cap are minerals. Nobody sober is saying that. Insisting that said realms must be minerals, so to speak, shows a rigidity of mind which at once preserves your extant world view and your blind spot. Placing virtue on your blind spot, citing you capacity for clear thought and well-reasoned materialist arguments per issues that are clearly otherwise makes you the left-brain equivalent of a hayseed or a yokel.
Approaching spirituality with suspicions, logic and sanity are prerequisites. Insisting that the spiritual conform to your existing, materialist POV is like trying to lyback the generator Crack. Lybacking is an invaluable technique. But the Generator Crack demands something else. To insist that lybacking is the only valid technique is to misrepresent both lybacking and the Generator Crack, and shows, rather clearly, that while you understand some of the terrain, you are totally in the dark on the rest of it because it looks nothing like your home turf.
But nobody's going to beg you off your corner of the world. That requires a giant step into the unimaginable. And that's not for everyone - that much is a certainty.
JL
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 18, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
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Marlow,
Really, its a lot simpler than the confusion you are creating. We are obviously at odds as to, "that," with which I am "free" from. Allow me to explain:
that = sin
I am free from the power and penalty of sin. By your response, I saw myself, as I once was, a sinner, eternally separated from God upon my physical death. I may be wrong about you on this but either way, my response was in this context.
What I see happening here, between our exchange, is beautifully elaborated on in these verses. Please take a moment to read:
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"
Why?.....................
"29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord" 1 Corinthians 1:18-31.
Edit: God is much greater than us Marlow, glory to God!
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 18, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
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MAN God is good!
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 18, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
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Shaking my head in awe, WHAT A GOD!
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 18, 2012 - 11:42pm PT
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All the glory to you heavenly Father, for saving a worm like me.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 18, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
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You're f*cking crazy man.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 19, 2012 - 12:16am PT
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Crazy about His Word Mike....I don't know what else to say but, thank God!
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 19, 2012 - 12:24am PT
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...and you're not the first to respond like that:
"And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness." - Acts 26:24-25 KJV
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 19, 2012 - 02:00am PT
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Wait, there is a guy in the bible named Festus?
Lol.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Mar 19, 2012 - 11:23am PT
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...and Michael, he was an angel.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Mar 19, 2012 - 11:43am PT
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Yeah, Marlow, stop all those argumentum ad hominem attacks on spirituality, ya left-brain equivalent of a hayseed or a yokel!
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Mar 19, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
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My angels.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 19, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
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Largo
You says:
"In fact what you have repeatedly offered are argumentum ad hominem attacks on spirituality whereby you ascribe all kinds of silly, faux literary slogans and superstitious religious traits to anything that does not square with a quantifying, bottom-up materialist model. And even going the next step and insisting that for the lack of physical evidence, all things/non-things spiritual are merely imagined. You apparently missed the Reynoso's argument about the folly of doing this - but I won't repeat it here."
Answer:
Once again you build your own strawman with the qualities you want to put into him and then start talking to him. There is no clear connection to what I have written. It's an abstract rant: "argumentum ad hominem attacks on spirituality whereby you ascribe all kinds of silly, faux literary slogans and superstitious religious traits to anything that does not square with a quantifying, bottom-up materialist model". The rant is your choice. You're off on your own trip hearing like the deaf. As argumentation it's very primitive.
Cintune
OMG! ... LOL...
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Mar 19, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
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MAN God is good!
woMAN god
even greater.
modern western religion
is just an excuse for
having a
religious
experience.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Mar 19, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
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If you think that someone is closed minded because they cannot see your point of view then you are being closed-minded in not seeing the possibility that your point of view is wrong.
You all need to open your minds to all of the the possibilities, not just the ones that fit your current beliefs. Maybe Marlow needs to accept that there may be a spiritual side of things and maybe WB and Largo need to accept that maybe there is just the physical and nothing more.
Until the people at both sides of an argument want to hear what the other is saying, there is only monologue, not dialogue.
Dave
P.S. Someone here needs to go to Wikipedia and look up "Straw Man". Misrepresenting an opponents position is so commonplace here that pointing it is fairly... pointless.
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