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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Apr 23, 2007 - 08:56pm PT
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com-on fatty, you, me, and the kid, and i will play nice, the harshest things i will say will be reading your own words, (and explaining frankly to her what you are saying), but i will do it openly and w/out judgement (i'll leave the judgement for the 11 year old).
do you think she will cry?
seriously, not to be mean or perverse, but will she cry?
maybe we should have a ST users poll to see if people think the kid will cry?
should i start a new thread?
what do you think / ST users poll:
will fatty's daughter cry when she hears, word for word, his various posts in support of violence and continued, increased, and more ruthless warfare here on stupidtopo? (keep in mind that he advocates war on brown people, and fyi she is an innocent young adopted asian girl) .
additionally, and in the spirit of keeping 'on topic' of the original thread...
hypothetically, if the video i shoot of this event gets lots of youtube play, maybe we could go into the (mussy and tarbuster inspired) wayback machine and do the sme thing w/ judy's kids minig and reading to them his old posts?
who says war mongers are good for nothing?
if ever true, that was clearly before youtube...
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Apr 23, 2007 - 09:04pm PT
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Matt: while I appreciate the vehemence of your antipathy toward Fattrad's position, I think you're getting a little too personal here.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Apr 23, 2007 - 09:55pm PT
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well then, let's pick an age where she can conceive of moral (or amoral) behavior, and where real life delimas (like war and racism) are a part of her concious experience.
at what age do you expect that to be the case?
i am a patient man.
mooser- guess what bud, i was/am trying to be personal. my very point is that any tough-talking, neo-con mouth-piece can paint whatever picture of himself (and his world view) that he likes in a "place" like stupidtopo, but it doesn't pass the sniff test of real life (i.e. would you tell your daughter you feel that way?).
so, could it just be that a sad and lonely man simply enjoys the attention that he gets from being offensive, and somehow prefers getting folks riled up to being ignored? i don't know, but i don't think that excuses being offensive, and as i said earlier, to have a jew calling for mass murder of a given race or religion is sureal for me to hear/read.
(oops, gee sorry, is that too personal, again?)
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Apr 24, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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The thing is, Matt, I agree completely with your perspective (at least what I've read from your postings) on Iraq and the related issues. I'm in a regular state of disbelief over what has happened over the last 7 years. That Bush could have been elected the first time (or whatever you call that debacle) was pretty unbelievable. The fact that anyone voted for him in the next election is reprehensible and inexcusable--especially given what anyone with their eyes half open could see.
But I also have a hard time believing that Fattrad isn't getting people riled up simply for his own enjoyment and sense of power. If he actually means what he says, then reason clearly isn't part of the equation here--hence, you and others are wasting your time trying to persuade him to embrace it. Why not direct your energies to writing people in the House and Senate? Here are the names and addresses for the Senate:http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm, and here are the names and addresses for the House of Representatives: http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.shtml. I'm writin' em all. Cheers!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Apr 24, 2007 - 12:57am PT
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Fatty wrote: "Try reading some of the comments/commentary out of the ME to see the larger risks."
See if I have this right. You're main concern is not bending the Arabs to our will but basically, containing them to the extent that they don't blow up the whole fricking planet the moment they get hold of nuclear decives. In other words, if you took out of the equation, completely, the possibility of the Arabs getting hold of nukes, or escalating chaos to nuclear dimensions, we could pull out of Iraq tomorrow.
Point being that if our involvement is to forstall Arab nuclear armament, why not say that outright and leave off with the nation building, which by most any definiton but your own, is not working nohow.
JL
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 24, 2007 - 01:46am PT
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Largo there is no single issue its a whole scheme. The main thread is western cultural and economic dominance. My understanding pf what Fatty has been saying is that basically Arabs and Persians are a barbaric people with an obsolete culture that can only be trusted to produce a widening conflict that, through no fault of our own, will eventually consume and destroy the west and so we are compelled through moral duty to intervene and impose our more civilized culture and way of life upon them. Thus we invaded Iraq to establish a 'friendly' nation in the heart of the middle east, and had things "gone well" we would have simply used our new and quite PERMANENT military bases there to launch invasions of Syria, Iran and possibly Saudi Arabia.
Oh and we aren't an imperialist nation either, just if you were wondering, right Fatty?
What is ironic is that countries like Iran are scrambling to get nukes to deter what they see as a constant threat by us. I smell a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 24, 2007 - 01:53am PT
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There's two things at play in Iraq.
1. Oil and Money. That's just one thing because they are both energy and Iraq has tons of oil. Oil is running out and it's only going to generate tons more power and money for those who control it.
2. Beyond security for Israel. Israel doesn't want just security, it wants to defy UN resolutions 242 and others and keep a larger Israel including the Golan Heights and West bank forever. Problem is, Iraq and Iran don't like that and they are destined to be rich and powerful unless somebody is controlling them.
Israel's solution to it's problem has been to isolate and neutralize one potential adversary after another until nobody has the power to stand in their way. This started with Sadat's peace treaty and continues with US sway over Saudi and Egyptian dictators and kings by keeping them in power in exchange for compliance. That's why fatty keeps calling for invasions of the remaining actors like Syria, Iraq and Iran.
That's the only way Israel can have it's cake and eat it too. It could give up the West Bank and Golan and live in peace with the Arab world at this point with a few apologies but that's political suicide at this point with the settler's power.
++++++++++
To get practical, and see who is "out of line" just put the shoe on the other foot. Who is actually enriching uranium, threatening people with nukes and violence and killing tens of thousands? Clue, It's not the Arabs nor the Iranians.
And Iran has called for a nuke free middle east numerous times. Take everybody's nukes away and it's called fairness and respect. At least Israel could count on US power to defend it if it were truly threatened.
Heck, Iran offered to quit enrichment if we did. Why not do that on a temporary basis for the sake of talks? We have plenty of bombs already.
That's the thing, we expect everybody to accept their station as puppet states with no self respect. Every other nation is supposed to accept our double standard and hypocrisy cause we're the special Americans.
For those who say "we should have been tougher" (Fatty) I say look at Afghanistan. The Taliban rose after the Soviet's fell in Afghanistan and they were plenty tough there.
Peace
Karl
PS Did I miss something. Matt met Fatty in person? Is there a link to this?
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Apr 24, 2007 - 02:01am PT
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karl-
yep, it's true-
see jpegs in another thread (search jaybro's posts)
for the record, i looked him right in the eye and the 1st thing i said was:
"wow, i thought you'd be better looking"
(true story =)
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Kenji
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 24, 2007 - 02:41am PT
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Through No Fault Of Our Own. The ultimate quote on this fantastic thread.
War on Brown people?
It's not only offensive, it's terrifyingly ignorant.
Daimyo
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Apr 24, 2007 - 08:23am PT
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L, Jaybro and others, about this eye color business, does that mean someone like David Bowie is at war with themselves?
EDIT
What I think is fascinating, and very, very welcome, is that Matt and Fattrad are not slagging each other big time by now, but are actually carrying on a decent discourse. Fair play to both of you. Keep it up, and I’ll keep reading your posts.
Wow, when did the two of you meet? Coolaboola.
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dank
Trad climber
the pitch above you!
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Apr 24, 2007 - 10:09am PT
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9 more American soldiers dead...surge looks like it just isn't working..."Pro-war crowd, admit you were and are still wrong..."
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Wild Bill
climber
Ca
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Apr 24, 2007 - 11:01am PT
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"9 more American soldiers dead..." Yes, today nine more U.S. soldiers died.
Lucky stiffs.
Because over 20 of their comrades are greivously injured. You know, the kind of injuries our soldiers didn't survive before body armour.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Apr 24, 2007 - 11:06am PT
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You can't win hearts and minds through force.
It is very foolish to think that other people will respond differently than you would. e.g. if American were attacked, and the attackers tried to force us into their way of thinking would you succumb? Absolutely not, you'd fight for your beliefs. Do you really expect any less of another human? All our brains work the same way. Put yourself in your adversary's shoes, it's the only way you can see what it would take to make a difference.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Apr 24, 2007 - 12:19pm PT
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DMT- everything he types is in that category. pretty damn funny that he now says we are invilved in a thousands of years type of conflict, and yet he also says (constantly) that if we toss a couple more governments under the bus and we are willing to militarily occupy a few countries for a few decades, we can moderate the whole region and eliminate the radical extremists. pretty neat that we are just about to wrap a conflict which has lasted eons!
(let's get back to the "quiet phase"!)
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Apr 24, 2007 - 12:58pm PT
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Fatty, I must have missed the part where a muslim country invades the US and forces us to live under Sharia law. How do you see that happening, exactly?
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UncleDoug
Social climber
N. lake Tahoe
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Apr 24, 2007 - 01:17pm PT
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"I'll be on a ten person call with McCain this afternoon, anything you want to bring up?"
Yeah, right. Must be a cold day in hell.
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Binks
Social climber
i am of the universe and you know what it's worth.
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Apr 24, 2007 - 02:27pm PT
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Fattrad, your view of the Middle East and our role in it is about as convincing as a hippie pipe dream.
I'm hoping Americans utterly refute the false ideology of American military occupation being able to transform the Middle East, and strip those from power who would attempt to do so.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Apr 24, 2007 - 03:45pm PT
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"Why does it have to happen in our life times? Typical american, only thinking about today. "
Says the guy with the foreign policy ideas of a 10 year old at a school room lunch table.
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Apr 24, 2007 - 03:53pm PT
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"I'll be on a ten person call with McCain this afternoon, anything you want to bring up?"
ask him if he regrets selling his 'maverick' soul to support gW, whose own unpopularity has in turn brought mccain into the dumper.
ask him if he regrets, as a former POW, not calling for rummy's head after abu grahib(sp?), rather than having been such a bush lackie.
ask him if he thinks any of the republicans will somehow inspire the right wing, including the religious right, who are pissed about the candidates offered to them (ha ha).
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the conservative christians don't trust him because of past sensible positions
Let us know!