LED lites: curse of the modern age

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Fritz

Trad climber

Choss Creek, ID

Nov 28, 2011 - 12:01am PT

Nick D & Dr. F.

Re your recent posts:

How did we get from being environmentalists to being whining crybabies, whining up a storm about being made to use something that has incredible environmental impact.

some of these people were never envirnomentalists (sic)

and they were just cry babies all along

Maybe today's Sunday cartoons explain the problem in a kindly way.

click on photo to enlarge.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Nov 28, 2011 - 01:01am PT

It will help when we can rip the corporate strangle hold from the throat of America and truly begin reinvesting in a sustainable future. Complaining about a limited supply of choices is of little value in the big picture. Propel the market forces and it will improve quality, choice and price.
The new tech available to potential markets is mind boggling. Soon the very paint you will be able to buy will collect solar energy and convert it to an electrical charge.
The whole Grid efficiency issue is a non starter as there is little future reason for centralized production and long distance delivery of electrical energy. Most electricity will be produced and consumed locally in a clean and sustainable manner. Thus the grid will be irrelevant soon enough. In the mean time the more we can do to more efficiently use and distribute what all ready is produced and delivered the better off we all will be, The cleaner our air and water will be and the freer of foreign energy hegemony and influence we will be. WIN WIN.

I remember when Texas Instruments developed and marketed the first pocket calculators. A good scientific model cost hundreds of dollars. Schools were not sure if they should be allowed. Consequently I still have and remember how to use a slide ruler. But the point being that by the following year they were allowed in schools and the price had dropped by over 50%. The year after that they were in every students hands and were being essentially given away for opening bank accounts and such. Some people were pissed thinking that if they only waited they could have saved a bundle. The conundrum is that without the early investment by folks who recognize the value the price would not have come down the way it did. Catch 22 or the way the biskit bounces? Computer memory is another good example of technology acceptance and price point. Memory upgrades used to cost blood donation money. Now you can get it by the terabyte for penny jar chump change.
If you want to do the right thing step up to the plate and put your money where your mouth is.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Nov 28, 2011 - 01:06am PT

Compared to ENRON and the gang, Solyndra is of less significance than your ACORN babbling was.

Perhaps some Metamucil will help you Fluffer.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Nov 28, 2011 - 01:09am PT

The whole Grid efficiency issue is a non starter as there is little future reason for centralized production and long distance delivery of electrical energy. Most electricity will be produced and consumed locally in a clean and sustainable manner. Thus the grid will be irrelevant soon enough.

There are lots of great conservation and alternative energy innovations out there and in the pipeline, but none of them will make the above statements true. Large-scale solar and wind power will all require long distance grid infrastructures as will various balancing technologies given the distribution of our population.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Nov 28, 2011 - 01:13am PT

Nano Carbon Tubes are 1000 times more conductive than copper. Soon enough the grid will be being recycled into beer cans.

There were always the status quo masses who screamed crap like don't pay for that boat it will only sail off the edge off the Earth. Well they eventually come along for the ride after the progressive have shown the way. You can wake up and see the light or live in the dark.
We can do so much better than we have! Shouldn't we?

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Nov 28, 2011 - 01:43am PT

http://dreams.honda.com/alternative-energy/

Should we wait till it is too late to be the innovators?

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Nov 28, 2011 - 01:48am PT

while it makes sense in one sector, residential energy, and perhaps in commercial also, LEDs may not be "sustainable"

In fact, little that we do is "sustainable" in any true sense, as we generally look around to exploit a resource which is non-renewable and provides us with some relatively short term advantage. It is a common survival tactic.

We can move the exploitable resource around a bit, and perhaps eek out more efficiency in so doing. I don't know any way around the 36% production efficiency of electricity. There may come a time that 7% inefficiency of transmitting and distributing electricity from central power plants will be worth going after, but there are other means of accomplishing larger savings.

Concentrated power production is a part of the infrastructure built over the preceding 100 odd years. Here is a plot of the US energy use

In the era of "wood" fuels, the entire Northeast part of the country was denuded of vegetation... interestingly, it is currently at 2% about as much a contributor as hydroelectric power 2.6%... wood was 100% until about 1850.

Then there was coal, which surpassed wood around about 1880, petroleum surpassed coal in 1950...

currently, the combination of coal 21% and natural gas 25% are a bit larger than petroleum 37%... they are used differently of course, the transportation sector using petroleum, electric generation the fossil fuels.

increasing the efficiency of the transportation sector would reduce petroleum use
increasing the efficiency of the residential sector would reduce electric use and in tern reduce coal and natural gas use

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Nov 28, 2011 - 02:03am PT

Ed you make great points and clearly demonstrate that this is all a progression. We keep doing things better and getting more from less and should continue to do so. Which is fortunate since if we still all relied on wood for fuel the World would resemble the Sahara.
It makes a great deal of sense to convert over the road hauling from diesel to CNG and inner city delivery and trades vehicles to electric. There is ample urban roof space for PV systems with hydrogen cell hybrid technology. If we have the will we have the way to attain energy independence.
All the models people use to show how impossible it is are stuck in a paradigm that has lost significance. Because we haven't yet doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't. Just as the early pioneers could not fathom jet flight and internet some people can't think outside the box to save their planet. It doesn't matter, they don't matter the future will out and they will tag along behind grumbling all the way to the bank.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Nov 28, 2011 - 03:40am PT

Unfortunately, there will never be geographic power generation density that matches and overlays population density - anyone believing that is achievable needs to put down their bong. Living with the demographics we do there will always be a requirement to distribute and balance power generations loads. Thinking otherwise is entirely counterproductive to attempts to establish energy independence for the nation.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber

I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!

Nov 28, 2011 - 04:20am PT

what about the easy bake oven?

try cooking a meatloaf with LED's.

women who own an easy bake usually end up with ample bosom.

join the pepsi people

here today, here to stay, feelin free

zip

Trad climber

pacific beach, ca

Nov 28, 2011 - 05:14am PT

Ok, but do LEDs consume less power?

zip

Trad climber

pacific beach, ca

Nov 28, 2011 - 10:42am PT

^^^^^^^
really?

i lot of guys in my RV group are replacing their standard light bulbs with LEDs, and that's what kind of Xmas lights i put on my boat.

i think in a 12v environment it definitely makes a noticeable difference on power consumption.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Nov 28, 2011 - 11:03am PT

^^^ Ahhh the beauty of Solar Energy and the magic of lighting all in one delightful package.

Light, shadow, warm, COOL.

Now photoshop an LED froglight in her hand and you'd have an effective sales campaign. Probably even work for the NasCar/WallMart hoard.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Nov 28, 2011 - 12:14pm PT

actually there are high power diodes used to generate infrared, "LED heaters" if you will..

Ghost

climber

A long way from where I started

Nov 28, 2011 - 01:11pm PT

actually there are high power diodes used to generate infrared, "LED heaters" if you will...

Whew! Saved my life with that note, Ed. You see, I use an incandescent light bulb as the heat source in my fermenter box. It only takes a 25 watt bulb to do the job, but without that... Well, life without properly brewed beer is so unthinkable that I would have had to kill myself on the day those wasteful incandescent bulbs were taken off the market.

Incandescent lights are not something I would have missed as light sources, and now that I know I can find an LED light that kicks out some heat, I won't miss them at all.

Ricky D

Trad climber

Sierra Westside

Nov 28, 2011 - 02:01pm PT

I blame the increase of residential power usage on two recent developments -

1. "Designer" lighting. Take the kitchen for example. In the 70s. most kitchens were lit with a single ceiling mounted fluorescent box. Now, every McMansion simply must have 25 down lights embedded in the ceiling, under cabinet strip lighting, task lights over the sink, task lights over the prep island - in short, we've gone from 4 fluor tubes to more lights than a high school theater set - and that's just one room.

2. Electronic gizmos - or more specifically, the chargers we use to keep our phones, pods, pads ready for instant use. The sheer number of these phantom power suckers surely has skewed the average household usage in recent years.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Nov 28, 2011 - 02:09pm PT

Dr F said:

"Make Cheap batteries inside 55 Gallon drums

They can be heavy and take up a lot of room, you can have 3 of them in your garage, and store all your power from the day.
Make them out the cheapest stuff available, no lithium or other expensive materials, just acid and lead.

They could be about $100-200 each

What do I Win??"

Uhh, I got it, a job in the landfill trying to dispose of the sh#t. Congrats. PS, I suggest painting the barrels green so that you can tout "Green Energy" Woot! (actually, they say that these are 97% recyclable, so you are only shitting on the environment @3 percent.)

Russ Walling

Gym climber

Poofter's Froth, Wyoming

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2011 - 02:41pm PT

Solar is too dirty to manufacture in the USA. If the 3rd world brown people would lower prices and provide unlimited long term dump storage... then maybe.

Battery idea is dirty too. Not viable in a pinko run country.

Radiation from LED's is causing problems in medical marijuana plants. Humans will be next if the curse is ever applied to a large population. So far it is only affecting tokers.

Honest incandescent lights made in the USA are the ticket.

philo

Trad climber

Somewhere halfway over the rainbow

Nov 28, 2011 - 04:14pm PT

I just finished a large kitchen remodel that included 40+ recessed LED lights at 11 watts each. At no time are more than 5 0r 6 lights on at a time, (all of the lights turned on at once is too bright).

For far less power consumption than an old-school, crappy, ceiling fluorescent fixture, these owners are getting super efficient, elegant, bright and warm, directed lighting.

Way to go Fort Mental!
Way to think outside the trap.