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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Speaking of prop 13, if it is repealed, you might as well just give CA back to Mexico, nobody would be able to afford to live here.
So how do people who move afford to? Because of prop 13, those who move get the heaviest burden. There are more equitable ways to deal with it.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Yes, pensions/health care promises are not causing any problems today:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44396682/ns/business-us_business/#.TmVgQ4JUMno
Missing the $5.5 billion payment due on Sept. 30, intended to finance retirees’ future health care, won’t cause immediate disaster. But sometime early next year, the agency will run out of money to pay its employees and gas up its trucks, officials warn, forcing it to stop delivering the roughly three billion pieces of mail it handles weekly. "
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Same basic problem though.
The legislative branch has become captive to the administrative state and made promises that it can not keep.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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Same fundamental problem - overpromising and underfunding, combined with successive stockmarket declines.
Doesn't matter if it is the state of California, the City of San Diego, GM, the New York transit authority, or the USPS - the problems are the same, the dates of the asset implosion are only different.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Curious to hear from those who know more about this than me. California is described as being broke. Texas is also described as the same. Yet these two states seem quite different to me. Are there commonalities (with specifics) that they have? Or did they just chose two paths that took them to the same destination? Or something else?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 6, 2011 - 08:50pm PT
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Jody,
You need to read my other 5 posts on this thread, and the links.
I am not going to repeat what I already said.
I still like your pictures.
There is no convincing argument that the CHP is so special that they need to be paid an effective $120K per year, plus huge benefits. You took the job knowing that it wasn't a desk job, did not need a college degree, required off hour shifts, and dealt with the public. So do lots of other workers who make much less, but don't have powerful public unions.
Even the cadet pay is absurd.
http://www.chp.ca.gov/recruiting/osalary.html
for comparison - midshipmen http://www.usna.edu/admissions/geninfo.htm
Someone else used the word egregious, which is quite accurate.
Your best defense is to continue paying your highly effective union to keep the politicians in your pocket.
If much of the total pay depends on OT, we have to ask why? It seems the entire system is designed to ring up pay, by maximizing OT whenever possible. For instance, by paying for lunch and automatic assumed pre/post shift hours.
If we need more LEOs on certain busy holidays then maybe we need some part time deputies.
What justification is there for paying rural CHP the same as downtown LA,
or San Francisco? Seems unlikely that CHP is as hazardous as an urban city police. No wonder the Bishop CHP office has grown so much.
The 3% per year pension is a scam.
Paying leaders who no longer patrol the same 3% is an even bigger scam.
disability scams
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=4792870
On the claim that prisons make no impact on California's budget:
We now spend more on prisons than on colleges. Great tradeoff.
Arguments that we waste money on other items are a different subject. Because we may start giving college financial aid to illegals is NOT a reason to overpay the CHP.
Also I have nothing against the CHP. They have been quite professional. Are they more professional than the Washington State Patrol, which makes about 1/2 the pay, according to the link I posted?
Why should we pay the CHP so much more than teachers (who make plenty considering their tenure and lack of pay for performance)
For anyone thinking about joining,
"Due to the current number of applicants in the CHP hiring process, future
testing has been suspended. If you are interested in a career with the
CHP, please check back periodically for updates on future testing dates."
http://www.chp.ca.gov/recruiting/docs/cadet_testing_schedule.pdf
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Since when is 100K such a fat salary? I've come across two major wrecks in my life and just would not want that as part of my job. Add in some meth addict trying to shoot me after a random traffic stop and 100ish does not seem that appealing.
Yep, prop 13 ia a disaster- if one does not understand the diff between housing property taxes and corp. property taxes please post no further.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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dave, the postal service is a federal agency.
traditionally, when we speak of government, we speak of four different levels: city, county, state, and federal. there are regional agencies of various other sorts, but basically, those four work for an st discussion unless we are getting technical.
because the usps is a federal agency, its budget falls under the purview of the federal government.
the state of california is not the federal government.
and there is no california postal service.
if you are determined to find pension problems that are currently significant causes of ongoing and short-term budget crises, you should look at the level of city government. there are several current candidates within california. they aren't part of the state government, either, but at least they'd be in the general area.
there are quite likely to be pension problems down the road for the budget of the state of california, but they are not the proximate cause of our current disaster. our current disaster is largely a predictable result of the sort of structural issues that everyone who studies the issue has been talking about for the last twenty years. the basic structural problems have been vastly worsened by the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.
splater, go ahead, run the budget calculator with ten percent across the board pay cuts for CHP and prison guards. it's useful as an experiment -- even though it's not a short-term political option --partly because the results aren't as dramatic as you might hope.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Another contributing factor to the retirement costs is that the 2% @ 55 syetem.
The deal is you get 2% of your highest years salary for each year at service at 55 with an increasing scale for delaying till 62, (typically 3% sometimes @ 50 for LEOs)
The CALPERS system grants no additional benefits for delaying retirement after 62. If you are in CALPERS and DON'T retire at 62 you are loosing money.
It's set up to encourage early retirement.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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There must surely be actuarial studies of firefighters, police, and other emergency personnel, showing their occupational risks, life expectancy, etc. Even subdividing them depending on the type of work they do. One would think that the OSHA people, or something of the sort, would have thoroughly studied this.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Dweeb intermission. The USPS is considered a Quasi-Governmental agency. From Wiki:
The United States Postal Service (also known as USPS, the Post Office or U.S. Mail) is an independent agency of the United States government responsible for providing postal service in the United States. It is one of the few government agencies explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution.
The USPS traces its roots to 1775 during the Second Continental Congress, where Benjamin Franklin was appointed the first postmaster general. The cabinet-level Post Office Department was created in 1792 from Franklin's operation and transformed into its current form in 1971 under the Postal Reorganization Act.
The USPS has not directly received taxpayer-dollars since the early 1980s with the minor exception of subsidies for costs associated with the disabled and overseas voters. Revenue has been in freefall due to declining mail volume.[3] The postal service has attempted to look to other sources of revenue while cutting costs to reduce its budget deficit.[4]
and
The Board of Governors of the United States Postal Service sets policy, procedure, and postal rates for services rendered, and has a similar role to a corporate board of directors. Of the eleven members of the Board, nine are appointed by the President and confirmed by the United States Senate (see 39 U.S.C. § 202). The nine appointed members then select the United States Postmaster General, who serves as the board's tenth member, and who oversees the day to day activities of the service as Chief Executive Officer (see 39 U.S.C. §§ 202–203). The ten-member board then nominates a Deputy Postmaster General, who acts as Chief Operating Officer, to the eleventh and last remaining open seat.
The USPS is often mistaken for a government-owned corporation (e.g., Amtrak) because it operates much like a business, but as noted above, it is legally defined as an "independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States", (39 U.S.C. § 201) as it is controlled by Presidential appointees and the Postmaster General. As a quasi-governmental agency, it has many special privileges, including sovereign immunity, eminent domain powers, powers to negotiate postal treaties with foreign nations, and an exclusive legal right to deliver first-class and third-class mail. Indeed, in 2004, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in a unanimous decision that the USPS was not a government-owned corporation, and therefore could not be sued under the Sherman Antitrust Act.[23] The U.S. Supreme Court has also upheld the USPS's statutory monopoly on access to letter boxes against a First Amendment freedom of speech challenge; it thus remains illegal in the U.S. for anyone, other than the employees and agents of the USPS, to deliver mailpieces to letter boxes marked "U.S. Mail."[24]
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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But was it drowned in a bathtub, and how did corporate oligarch insiders make money on what happened?
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Why is Texas broke? The unions?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dan Walters hit it out of the park yesterday.
There's no official definition of liberal government, but a fair description would be the proactive use of official powers to protect and enhance the public welfare, however that may be perceived.
The great political debates at all levels of government are over how deep that intrusion should be – such as the turmoil over whether the federal government should mandate purchase of health care insurance.
That philosophical debate aside, there is a darker side to liberal government.
Its regulation and taxation have great financial impact, creating an incentive to reshape public policies for private gain.
Every new regulatory or taxation policy immediately spawns an array of financial stakeholders who then hire lobbyists and political consultants, distribute money to political policymakers, and seek self-serving applications of government power.
They may be a subsidy from a local government redevelopment agency, a tax loophole, a regulatory crackdown on a competitor, a change in the coastal zone's regulatory boundaries, or monopoly licensing status, to name but a few examples.
And politicians, for obvious reasons, like having the power to grant favors, even when it defies rationality, such as the Legislature's micro-control over which horse breed can race at which track on which day, or over company-by-company exceptions to the state's anachronistic liquor sales laws.
The Capitol's chief activity is, in fact, directly or indirectly taking money from someone and giving it to someone else. And one of its dirty little secrets is that the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on lobbying, contributions and other tools of persuasion pale in comparison to the many billions of dollars that politicians can dispense.
The 2011 legislative session's final days are, as usual, replete with efforts to gain such financial advantages. While most fly under the radar, some are too big to hide.
Two years ago, the Legislature and then-Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger gave a proposed professional football stadium in Industry, a Los Angeles suburb, a blanket exemption from the California Environmental Quality Act's requirements.
Now the developers of a rival arena project in downtown Los Angeles are seeking special CEQA treatment – a speeded-up judicial review process.
Industry will oppose the measure and may be joined by San Diego politicians who worry that their Chargers team will be lured to Los Angeles. It's conceivable that Santa Clara may seek some CEQA relief for its proposed 49ers football stadium.
But that political maneuvering begs the question.
If CEQA is a good law, it should be good for everyone, not just those who lack the political clout to gain some relief from its restrictions and requirements.
And if CEQA is too onerous, it should be changed, not merely riddled with special-interest loopholes.
Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/09/06/3886761/dan-walters-a-dark-side-to-liberal.html#ixzz1XHCQydJs
To Jody's welfare point, It will be interesting to see if Moonbeam signs Dream Act #2 that's on his desk right now.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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tgt-- not surprised that you have such a high estimation of walters.
if you want to read a genuinely libertarian argument, then there are lots of them and walters is one of the last i'd recommend.
i treat a walters piece the way i treat a crossword puzzle-- you know there are words in there, but none of them have anything more than a random relation to each other, aside from the fact that they intersect in a defined space.
this piece is hash-- 20 years ago it would've been unpublishable, not because the points it makes are shocking or provocative, but because it is such a shoddy piece of journalistic craftsmanship.
only those who have lived lives blissfully ignorant of policy and politics could fail to understand that, yes, deal-making and negotiation and favor exchange are the basis of political systems. any remedial polisci class (available, at least for the moment, at any of our JCs) could give you that lesson in day one. i do like the way that he makes two iconic republican politicians, nixon and schwarzenegger, the villains of the piece. not surprising, but one more bit of data (if any were needed) about the current state of political discourse in these united states.
walters's unintentionally ironic use of "liberal" is pretty funny. indeed, he's advanced the traditional 18th century argument for absolutist monarchy against representative democracy (which is what "Liberalism" means in political theory), namely, that representative government is un-natural and chaotic because it involves constant trade-offs among various interest groups and social classes.
btw, if you or jody or anyone else on this thread believes that cutting "welfare" more deeply will solve our budget crisis, have at it: show us you climb 5.15. run the budget simulator and then report back with yr numbers.
and crimpie, yeah, i wasn't even going to go there.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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btw, my best guess is that walters (and tgt) didn't realize that "dark side of liberalism" has become a key phrase for a resurgent white supremacist movement, especially among the whackjob fringe of anti-immigration groups.
they use it was a double-entendre-- as in, "liberalism" is a government of, by and for "darkies." phil kent's book is pretty clear about how literally he wants us to read "dark side."
i'm willing to give tgt the benefit of the doubt, here. my guess is that that avatar isn't even familiar with that literature (i use the word loosely). but of course, the final reference to the dream act and thus to mexicans, follows fairly predictably if (i hope) unconsciously.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's one of the most wacked out, idiotic posts to date.
Can't win a debate with reason,
Call 'em a racist.
Pretty sick really.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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ZZZZZZZZzzzzzz!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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heh, yeah, my guess is that walters is just parroting a phrase that's grown popular on the right. and my guess is that many of the folks using it don't know that weird history. sounds like you don't either.
but yes, tgt, phil kent is a white supremacist.
he's not been especially coy about it.
financial crises bring out the whack jobs. the number of threads on this forum that quickly link to protocols of the elders of zion or worse is just another reminder of why enlightenment political philosophy was so suspicious of plebiscatory government.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Never heard of Phil Kent.
Who's he?
What in Walter's column is an inaccurate description of Sacramento politics?
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