Almost inevitable ... over Vernal Falls ... again.

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Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Jul 23, 2011 - 10:45am PT

I should note that I'm not saying they didn't make a poor choice, and yeah, they had to pay hard for that choice.

I'm just not going to cluck and call them stupid, and part of me is glad there are people (like us) willing to go against the common safest course in order to squeeze a little adventure and spice out of life.

I'm willing to risk my life to LIve Larger and hope I don't misjudge things any worse than I have in the past

Peace

Karl

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Jul 23, 2011 - 11:37pm PT

Although I haven't read ALL the posts, my comment is pretty direct: There is no way to substitute for personal responsibility. I'm not going to call anyone "stupid," "dumb," or "idiots." They were irresponsible and ignorant of the consequences of their actions. They made decisions that were poor based on underestimating the circumstances. I am in deep sympathy for their families and friends, but there is no denying that the Darwin Awards were in effect.

It was my former climbing partner who attempted to cross Bridalveil Creek after climbing the LT back in 1974, and subsequently drowned while roped up.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Jul 24, 2011 - 01:44am PT

Peter Williamson was a very fine climber and I did most of my ascents in the Valley with him in the Summer of 1965; Arches Terrace, Overhang Bypass on Lower Cathedral Rock to name a couple. These aren't done with any frequency these days, but at the time they were considered "mandatory" for any visiting climbers.

I was doing a postdoc in chemistry at UCSC in 1974 and I took a climbing trip up to the Valley one weekend and ran in to Pete on the shuttle. He mentioned that he was planning on the Leaning Tower later in the week and he was planning to drop in on me in Santa Cruz after the climb. He never showed up, and I learned later that he had drowned in Bridalveil Creek after a successful ascent of the LT. He was the first of my partners to die a climbing related death, but not the last.

Jeff-You made the right choice!

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber

bouldering

Jul 24, 2011 - 04:08am PT

... drowned while roped up.

Full respect/reverance to that situation, but people who take up climbing should not be so confident in the equipment of the sport. We hear alot of critisism of solo climbers (for example) who've died etc - that we should all use a rope (at least), but ropes, cams, pitons and all that are secondary to just common sense. I crossed the creek once descending from Dewey Point to the valley via Gunsight. Didn't even have to touch the water (late summer) to get across. If it had been high water, I'd have had to go farther upstream to find a feasable crossing I guess. Simple logic can take care of alot of these questions.

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Jul 24, 2011 - 11:25am PT

Crossing any high/swift water is an "iffy" proposition, and not one that I would care to attempt. The subject individuals in the OP were unaware of being "over the line" of reason. Regardless, we can't always be around those ignorant in the ways of the outdoors or caution them enough. In the end, they cannot be protected from themselves all the time! The situation was truly unfortunate, but these accidents will continue ad nauseum until the Park is closed just to protect people from themselves.

My first wife Catherine and I did 2 sections of the Muir Trail back in 1979 and there was one major river crossing involved but the rangers had placed a handline across the San Joacquin river. we were prepared, though, with boat shoes, chest harnesses/carabiners etc. and made the crossing balancing our packs on our heads. Neither of us particularly enjoyed it, but we got washed clean from 10 days of sweat and salt. It was just a few days earlier that the rope had been emplaced or we would have otherwise retreated back to the starting point at South Lake, or taken a different lateral trail out to the Eastside.

High water is NOT your friend!

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Jul 24, 2011 - 11:42am PT

Skip-

The river crossing I described above was a little higher than just waist deep on me and up to my wife's boobs. I would have been impossible any earlier in the season and I recall that this was early August. The current was strong enough to nearly sweep us off our feet. I don't know how the burro packers managed it without everything getting wet.

Betelnut

Mountain climber

So. California

Jul 25, 2011 - 09:40am PT

Quit with the Darwin comments. You're rock climbers, remember?

Brokedownclimber

Trad climber

Douglas, WY

Jul 25, 2011 - 12:15pm PT

Yeah, I've been a rock climber for 52 years. I've had a couple of accidents and only one was nearly fatal.

The point I've been trying to make...albeit in too subtle a manner...is something pilots have drilled into their minds: It's called "situational awareness." That means understanding the complete nature of the present environment and how even slight changes can alter the status quo. Weather, time of day, winds, how a person is feeling, etc. Most people these days wander through life in a complete mental fog, trusting to good luck or whatever to keep them from getting killed.

Climbers also tend to have highly developed senses of situational awareness based on experience; i.e. nearly getting killed.

My first flight training instructor said something that bears repetition: "Situational awareness is simply getting a highly developed sense of self preservation."

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Jul 25, 2011 - 12:41pm PT

I remember that LT river accident very well. My condolences Rodger.
As a lifelong surfer, sailor, and kayaker I already had that religion but it
was still very shocking.

It seems like all it should take to get 'converted' would be to have someone
turn a garden hose onto your chest at full bore and feel what a 1/2" stream's
power is like.

One thing many pilots do when they run their checklist is to touch the gauges
and controls. I got into this habit when setting up for rappel takeoffs.

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Jul 25, 2011 - 05:39pm PT

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/25/EDVU1KDSBE.DTL

dirt claud

Social climber

san diego,ca

Jul 25, 2011 - 05:55pm PT

thanks for the article.
No matter what we think about how these people died. It's a matter of respect to hold back the lame comments.
Just ask yourself. If this was my family member, how would I feel to have people berating them after they are already gone and all that is left is a grieving family, who is already dealing with so many emotions, why add anger to that, aren't they already dealing with enough? . IMHO it's just a matter of respect.
Save the lame comments for those who not just kill themselves, but others as well, for example drunk drivers, etc...

JLP

Social climber

The internet

Jul 25, 2011 - 06:15pm PT

That article was stupid.

Fluoride

Trad climber

West Los Angeles, CA

Jul 25, 2011 - 06:38pm PT

LA Times article:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-yosemite-fall-20110725,0,7181362.story

Very sad, but very preventable. The victims ignored very clear warnings and unfortunately paid the greatest price. In the Times article someone who visited the site after the fact even said how he could totally see how they'd want to enter that water, how great it looked - DESPITE PLENTY OF POSTED WARNINGS.

It's like the "do not feed bears sign" and someone gets mauled to death for feeding a bear and people are shocked...despite obvious warnings.

kunlun_shan

Mountain climber

SF, CA

Jul 25, 2011 - 07:00pm PT

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-yosemite-fall-20110725,0,4365767,full.story

Putris (treasurer of the Ceres, Calif. church the 3 went to) couldn't understand how they could have taken such a risk until he and a dozen other church members went to Yosemite on Wednesday to search for the victims. None in the party had been to the national park before, though they've lived for years in an area considered a gateway to Yosemite.

"When you are an immigrant, usually you move first to a big city. You are going to school, working two or three jobs. A national park is a luxury you know nothing about," Putris said.

On their climb up Mist Trail, cut into the sheer face of a mountain, one searcher put his hand on the side to steady himself and was surprised to find the wet algae was slicker than soap.

When they got to the top and Putris saw how calm the pools above the fall looked, he was stunned.

"If I was Ramina or David, I would have thought 'It's just water. If you slip, big deal, you get wet,'" he said.

Even in a normal season, the Merced River has a dangerous undercurrent moving powerfully to the fall. This year, a massive Sierra Nevada snowpack, almost twice the average, has turned the water into a jaw-dropping force not seen in decades.

In October, the Assyrians will mark the 100th anniversary of their arriving in the Central Valley....

HighTraverse

Trad climber

Bay Area

Jul 25, 2011 - 07:20pm PT

I don't mean to make light of this tragedy but "accidents will happen". Sure we can all second guess back up the chain of events and find decisions that led directly to this. Then it's easy enough to say "stupid people" or "negligent Park Service". You can do the same with the Shuttle Challenger failure. Life is complex because humans are complex. People inadequately assess the risk to themselves or others or a system. Sh*t happens.
My heart goes out to all.

Longstick

Social climber

Seattle, WA

Jul 25, 2011 - 07:32pm PT

Steering this back to the contributing factors behind these deaths, church youth groups and some scouting-types are often the feeders. Too many of these folks lack the experience of jumping across a stream and slipping on that wet rock. Maybe they have concluded not to believe warning signs either....ever bought a curtain with that warning about being strangled to death by the string? Who cares? We are numbed from these. Oh, and let's not forget how group-think and role-playing creeps in. Groups abdicate individual sensibilities and replace them with role playing. It's the class-clown, the jokester, the bookworm, the question-asker....and the 'adventurer'. Kids are entrenched in their respective roles. They go to the ice-rink for a scheduled outing...the leader tries to enforce house-rules. The 'adventurer' gets his buddies to play crack-the-whip anyway...another stupid rule is broken for a little fun...no biggie. Next outing ...the pool-party...the 'adventurer' and buddies jump from the balcony and splash the cute girls. Next week is the hike in Yosemite. So why not slip outside the railing for a little extra zest in that photo? It's always been OK for the 'adventurer' to stretch the rules....why don't we try?

No, these folks are not idiots...they were set up and ripe for an accident...many meaningless rules, church youth groups going where folks have no experience, and the repeated theme of adventure and fun beginning just beyond the sign that says, "Do not".