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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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YOU'VE GOT ONE CHANCE AT THE ONSIGHT.
OT (although music has entered this conversation.) I was in a recording studio a couple years ago, and George Clinton was ad libbing some little vocal bits we were going to edit into the album here and there. The album was generally about relationships. At one point, as he sat there in a cloud of smoke, he said:
"Remember. You only have one chance to make a first impression, in a relationship."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Reduced to it simplest root, there's no definition of trad that involves or includes resting on the rope. That again harks back to the foundation of doing trad FAs where you can end up in runout situations where hanging isn't an option, only climbing on or falling.
P.S. Gotta take off...
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Pass the Chongo, Chongo
Social climber
love, trust, and T*Rs nuts!
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SO BECAUSE I RAP BOLTED ON KARMA DOES THAT MAKE IT A SPORT CLIMB NOW???
thanks for the SPACE STATIONS mr grozzman!!!!
Peace & Love
Prof. Chongo
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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It's interesting and lamentable to see the same arguments froth feverishly the way they did twenty five years ago.
I think it's valid and very important to distinguish and be honest about style and the nuances of personal, cultural and regional approaches as to how we climb.
I suggest that with regard to bolts we acknowledge that some climbing cultures regard any form of bolting as anything but traditional and in the case of many of Britain's "traditional" climbing areas, bolts are forbidden. Ditto for pitons. I have a clear recollection of some respected members of our climbing community refusing to use cams because they weren't traditional and created an unfair advantage. Special note was often made when some of Ray's harder routes were led on hexes.
It can be fairly argued that a bolt is a bolt no matter how it got there and assigning judgements and distinctions once the drill comes out is more a matter of personal and cultural preference than ethical maleficance. Devaluing the quality of someone's climbing experience because they may have hung on a rope, top roped, rehearsed or clipped draws in place smacks of intolerance and bigotry often rooted in insecurity.
The deeper issues here are those of honesty about how we climb and respect for others' cultural preferences be it personal or regional. Let's be careful with sweeping negative pronouncements about others style or choice of how they experience the multifaceted sport of rock climbing.
With respect to katiebird's original question; to some yes and others no.
Peace
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I would rather see history erased, then to see every cliff a museum
Yes, well fortunately this is not a choice we are confronted with. You present an "either / or" which we do not face.
I've become a climbing history buff. When I visit an area I always want to know who did what when and how. This knowledge inspires and motivates me. Understanding and preserving history is not anithetical to freedom.
I've been researching the history of an area I thought I knew a lot about. Turns out I didn't know so much. Fun stuff!
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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"You will feel differently if you ever own a house on the National Historic Register. Then you will suffer perfect strangers tells you what you can and cannot do with or to your own house, based not on your ideas and respect for history, but theirs. Now apply this to climbing - if you have to ask permission to do a new route, you have surrendered a freedom."
If any climber could do whatever they wanted on the rock, there would be an ocean of bolts at the base of each cliff. The "Climbing Community" assumes that it has the right to set the norm. That is false. The bolting abuses have lead to the restrictions we now have in most national parks. From the point of view of the non climber, having a bunch of metal affixed on the rock is an eyesore. Regulation was needed and we, the climbing community, bear responsibility for it.
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Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
Trad climber
Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville
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So………… For those that climb Tahoe/Hwy 50 area. I’d like to take a poll: Do you think a bolt should be added to Lurch with the FA’st permission?
I do think that climbers like Ron Anderson have very relevant points about “sacking up” being a very important part of climbing. Courage and strength are the core values that have always been important in climbing and it will never change. A certain amount of climbers are attracted to danger. All you have to do is look at English Grit. The availability of sport climbing in the UK is there, but some just have to have some fear in their climbing experience. I embrace it, need it and respect it. I can run out 5.8 a pretty long way, but if I did it on a FA I’d just be selfishly screwing it up for others that don’t climb as well. All I’d be doing is putting up a 5.8 that only 10+ leaders can lead. I want people to have a good time. In our region there are literally hundreds of harder, scarier, more dangerous routes to work up to.
A few points:
Placing bolts where gear is available is always wrong, because……..well there’s gear!
The argument about the harder climbs being well protected is true. The 5.11 first ascentionist will most likely put a bolt on their 5.11 FA where they think they will fall, which may be 6 feet apart. If they happen to put up a 5.7 they will likely run it way the hell out because they are definitely not going to fall. I would argue by doing that they just screwed it up for any 5.7 climbers, and they should have bolted it appropriate for the grade. What is so heroic about a run out 5.7 or 5.8?
As for rap or GU bolting. It’s simply irrelevant to anyone but the first ascentionist, and if they choose to “rob themselves of the experience” that’s their choice. Anyone could “hand drill from stances” any number of routes up and down the Lover’s Leap that would be horrible squeeze jobs and ought not to go in. There are several routes I can think of that should never have gone in and went in GU. It just doesn’t matter unless you’re the first ascentionist. What matters is the climb you’ve added to the area. Have you improved the area, or detracted from it through your efforts?
A bolt on Lurch with the first ascentionists permission is to make it less dangerous. Scary is fine, hard to place gear is fine, dangerous in the easy grades? Not so sure? Especially if there isn’t much to do at that grade, which is the case at the Loaf.
At the end of the day, does it matter that a few easy routes are put up for the beginners where they don’t have to worry about breaking their neck?. It doesn’t bother me. There are literally hundreds of bold, hard roués that I can work at if I chose. The other day there was a couple of whole families up at the Loaf lining up to climb Mortisha because they couldn’t lead anything else. An elitist would say “tough. Sack up or go home”. I would say stick another bolt on Lurch so they can have a day out at the crags too. I’m glad to see families out hiking around enjoying nature and not sitting around playing video games. And contrary to some peoples opinion it is not the end or the beginning of the end, its just giving the beginners a few more routes to do.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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ST is truly the market place of ideas . . . ;>)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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And that guy jogill posted here, too. We're lucky to have climbers of such experience and stature contributing - it's not like any of these questions are new.
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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First, when i did Lurch it was at the near top of my leading experitse. I had climbed with seasoned guys and soaked the info from them to equip me with the needed "sackage". That is the exact reason its a stand out achievement in my climbing memories. The people that go to the loaf already KNOW what is there. And every boulder in the region now has hangers dangling, so theres no shortage of routes. MAYBE those folks you saw have that route on their "to do" list becuase of its very nature. A lot of the routes there were steep in grade from hardings chimney to scheister to farley to bolle gold. As I said before, youd be doing the gym tuaght noobs a better service if you just bolted the first pitch of Farley! LOL I havent heard of ONE accident on Lurch....which is MEANT for the aspiring 5.9 leader to jump on. Every route below 5.10 isnt just for the very new. Its part of "getting there". And might i add, ive NEVER heard of anyone wanting to put a bolt in Lurch, but i have heard many " man thats a great lead" comments!
edit: look at it this way, LURCH has seen probably a thousand or more ascents since it was done 40 years ago, as is. Now becuase of one opinion, its going to get fitted with PERMANENT gear. DOes the one opinion negate the thousand plus before it??
To be fair, 40 years ago 5.8 wasn't something you'd ever see a six year old on, now it wouldn't be at all surprising to see them send it on top rope. That's just the way things worked out...
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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edit: cook, not sure about the six year old refrence?
5.8 wasn't always a beginner grade. With modern equipment and often a bit of experience at a climbing gym the vast majority of climbers are able to climb 5.8.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Tom, thanks for posting that link up - I'll take a look at it later tonight when I have a chance to get back to my desk.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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One quick one until later. Chief, sorry I somehow missed your post...
Devaluing the quality of someone's climbing experience because they may have hung on a rope, top roped, rehearsed or clipped draws in place smacks of intolerance and bigotry often rooted in insecurity.
Don't mistake my intention here with my personal tastes. Up front I have no problem stating I don't care for plastic or sport climbing, which in the end almost has more to do with not liking crowds or climbing in groups. That, however, has nothing to do with my point and intention here.
And that point is around language - 'climbing' has already been co-opted and relegated to the abortion of 'trad climbing'; ok, fine, but let's not then further add insult to injury by then co-opting the meaning of trad climbing to mean sport climbing on gear (sprad).
I couldn't care less how anyone climbs, what I do care about is the absurd reduction of 'trad climbing' to somehow now simply mean climbing on gear. Jesus, a chimp can plug gear; if that's all there was to trad climbing I wouldn't even be bothering to post up.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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IIRC, until the 1980s the subdivisions of rock climbing were aid, free, wall, mixed (free & aid), clean and/or hammerless, on sight, toproping, bouldering, and hangdogging. And of course slab, crack (finger, hand, fist, offwidth, chimney), and face climbing.
Neither "sport" nor "trad" were used as adjectives in relation to climbing, and few thought of climbing as a sport.
Had anyone referred to 'trad' climbing, one would have assumed the person to be talking about climbing in wool knickers, tricounis, and hemp ropes, probably pre-1939.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Tom higgins has already (again) posted the source of the "traditional" adjective, his essay on "tricksters" and " traditionalists."
Ironically, jb's hooking on routes like B-Y was one of the inspirations for the piece. Higgins objected to the new tricksters who were breaking with the tradition of bolts placed from standing stances.
The BY was not a trad rute. It became a "trad" route later, for lots of folks, because the youngsters thought it was "badass." Of course, as Perry correctly noted above, Kamps and Higgins's routes wouldnt have been "trad" by Peak District standards, since they used bolts.
Nowadays, DMT is correct: For most climbers trad simply means gear placement.
Language evolves.
Sometimes, that's a bad thing.
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