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BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Jun 12, 2010 - 01:24am PT

I am not sure how trespass is handled in CA, but usually there needs to be some sort of notice or physical barrier, even a barbed wire fence. Something that is either a barrier or obviously a boundary. Say a lawn, even.

If no fence or notice, OK the first time. Then if you are told that it is private property, you leave. If it IS private property and you have been warned, you can be arrested if you return. As for guns, threatening someone with a gun over trespass on unmarked property is pretty nuts, and probably criminal. But I would let it go. You should never back talk a landowner.

But...after you have been warned, you better know where the boundary is. And pissing off the neighbors is kind of dumb. Even if he was wrong, you should have left and then done a double check on the ownership. Just because a guidebook says something about ownership does not make it true.

In most states the assessor's office is not really the final word on property boundaries. Usually it is in the County Clerk's office, or the Registrar of Deeds. To figure out actual property lines can take an attorney and a title opinion. I deal with it all of the time in the oil business along with other real property law..but it is somewhat unique by state. Trespass can be a super harsh misdemeanor in Texas.

It isn't worth it, pissing off landowners. They all talk to each other, and things start to spread. Being a good neighbor will get you a long ways with landowners much of the time.

Sounds like they have had trouble in the past and are tired of it. Now he has to pay for a survey.

And a guidebook is not a legal document. At least I have never seen one that was a legal document.

And if it is private, respect the owner's wishes. Or buy the crag. We did that once, and the Access Fund paid for half of it. But I would never backtalk a single word other than to apologize and leave. Even if he were wrong. Because the local landowners all know each other. Trust me on that.

Do your investigating after.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Jun 12, 2010 - 08:35am PT

"I guess you could go on having a shitty attitude, RLF or you could organize help and cultivate stewardship. Good luck."

I've put a lot more time into clean up's, stewardship, access issues, volunteer time for the climbing community than most.

Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Jun 12, 2010 - 10:04am PT

glad this one isn't forgotten, but it would appear that nice guys aren't in charge of security and perhaps the landowner is being less than candid. why is that not suprising?

i still think duck hunting next to a major highway is the sleeping giant here, and caltrans ought to be involved. our recent vice president has demonstrated for all to know what can happen when even a veteran shotgun hunter gets all excited about his quarry. let them own the thing, if that gives them great jollies. just don't let them hunt.

it's been awhile since i climbed at FF, and if they're drawing the line between the upper and lower falls, that sounds a little disturbing. the blm administers this area, and if they've failed to define a line for the public they are not doing their job. the way the blm developed FF in recent years gives it an even higher profile. i wouldn't take anyone's word for where that line is, and i think the blm has prime responsibility now for getting it surveyed properly.

i would be very surprised if the access fund gets involved here. i don't think they care much about local places--it has to be a high-profile world class place like josh. they didn't lift a finger at williamson rock. but if you're looking for cohorts, you might try the SCMA. they and their predecessor, the sierra club rock climbing section, have used FF for their safety class graduation weekend since the 70s, and they're usually happy to devote a little money and a volunteer or two to a good cause.

BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Jun 12, 2010 - 11:18am PT

Blaming the landowners is going to get you worse than nowhere. I have been down this road.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Jun 13, 2010 - 07:59pm PT

" the sierra club rock climbing section, have used FF for their safety class graduation weekend since the 70s, and they're usually happy to devote a little money and a volunteer or two to a good cause."

I'd be very careful with that suggestion. In case you didn't know, it was a Sierra Club group that was driving hard against bolting and climbing access issues here in josh.

If you really wish to see just how motivated the Sierra Club truly is with regards to access, look what they accomplished with Pacific Crest Trail allowing large quantities of pack animals on to it.

They had a lot to do with allowing "mule" trains on to the trail complete with hitching posts next to rivers and streams etc.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Jun 13, 2010 - 08:46pm PT

Well, I'm sure those were glorious times.

Things have changed with them over the years. They now suffer from "splinter" groups that have their very own agenda.

Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Jun 13, 2010 - 09:38pm PT

a little history for you and your big mouth, rlf.

the sierra club rock climbing section was discontinued in the late 80s/early 90s. up until that time it was pretty much the only halfway formal club for climbing in so cal, open to anyone. (for stonemasters, you had to climb valhalla, way over the head of RCSers.) then along came insurance paranoia. i believe the RCS began in the 1930s and had quite an interesting history, but the sierra club abandoned it because its insurer told it to. it also ditched its very popular BMTC, basic mountaineering training course, which introduced so many to the sierra nevada and how to deal with it safely, and reinvented it as a wishy-washier "wilderness travel course". great steps in the wrong direction. someone dug up john muir's grave, and sure enough, he had rolled over.

i was an RCSer then, and we decided to form our own climbing club, the SCMA, which continues to this day, continuing most of the traditions of the RCS. i haven't been part of that mix for quite a few years, but i don't think i'm out of line suggesting that they'd be interested in helping out.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Jun 13, 2010 - 09:50pm PT

Speaking of big mouths, when exactly are you coming down here to help out with the clean up of the pit?

You won't.

So, put you're actions where you're mouth is. I will schedule a clean up of the pit on this Saturday the 19th of June. I will pay with my own money for the dump run and the gas which will be needed to complete the process.

And if you think I am making an issue of the pit that is of no point to this whole conversation, then you are incorrect.

It goes straight to the heart of the matter.

It's private property, which allowed access to CLIMBERS who horribly abused that access.

I'll even spend my own money to at least buy beer. I will also make sure there is drinking water. It will probably take a few hours to get things done. If you want to climb, the weather is perfect, just find shady areas.

I'll be gracious to anyone who shows up, I will be inviting and thrilled to be proved wrong.

Hundreds of people have enjoyed the very idea that the pit was 1) free, 2) free from the NPS, 3) open 24/7.

I have been there on many occasions and never have been aggressive or disrespectful of any of the visitors there.

I've have only asked a few things.

1) Do not mess with the neighbors

2) keep it quiet after 10PM

3) Please clean up after yourself and others

4) Do not camp or park on the "hill"

5) Do not mess with the neighbors

It's not a lot to ask.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Jun 13, 2010 - 10:39pm PT

By the way, I never said a thing against the SCMA.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jun 14, 2010 - 01:36am PT

To figure out actual property lines can take an attorney and a title opinion.

And a survey by a professional surveyor, possibly. Which is to say that it may cost $$.

George Washington was a land surveyor. Does that make it patriotic to hire one?

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Jun 14, 2010 - 05:42pm PT

I will absolutely say "Hail to the Chief". I may not agree about certain things he is attempting, and this ain't the NE, but, I do believe that his heart is in the right place and he is doing a fine job of representing himself.

I have no beef with him what so ever.

Just to make sure there is no mistaken identity here, I AM NOT A PROPERTY OWNER OF ANY OF THE LANDS I SPEAK OF.

I am, though, the caretaker and the person responsible for these properties.

I take this responsibility very seriously.

While I have not personally dumped a gazillion dollars into these lands, I have put a fair amount of my own money into them. With out expectation of compensation.

What I have done is to put a HELL of a lot of my time into these places.

Thanks!

Tony Bird

climber

Northridge, CA

Jun 14, 2010 - 10:40pm PT

gawd, three rednecks stroking each other--disgusting. and i'll bet they all claim to be hetero.

rlf, why don't you start a separate thread on your pit? sounds like it'd be worth it. this one's about fossil falls.

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Jun 14, 2010 - 10:48pm PT

No, this one is not about FF. This one is about access to private property.

I'm sorry you can only see a title and not the whole picture.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jun 15, 2010 - 01:16am PT

Damn: rough crowd. I only have a few things to add.

I know Bryan Schmidt and a better, more peaceful, levelheaded, friendly guy probably couldn't be found. If he says he was there and that it went down that way, then that is exactly how it went down.

2) You guys need to stop screaming at each other. Bad form, we're bros here.

3) Thanks for the work in looking into the legality and issues Chief. You are obviously the man. That's the way to approach it, wish you were up our way, I don't have those skills.

4) Robert, you rule too, but these guys can't walk a mile in your shoes or they'd be on their knees thanking you AND getting all of their buddies to go get the pit in order so you wouldn't have to lift a finger. AND they'd be buying the beer for you. I'm a long long way away or I'd be there.

Lastly, again: we should all stop calling each other names, it avoids the real issues. Good luck with FF dudes and don't forget to walk a mile in the landowners shoes before you start calling him names! :-)

Take care all

Bill

kev

climber

A pile of dirt.

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2010 - 01:59am PT

Funny how this thread still lives albeit it off thread.

rlf,

The thread drift may not be about FF but the post is. BTW if I'm ever at the pit I will (as I do almost everywhere I go, and did at FF) pick up other peoples trash. Sorry to hear about that at the pit.

Couch,

Rough crowd here...

kev

rlf

Trad climber

Josh, CA

Jun 15, 2010 - 09:26am PT

Agreed. To both kev and couch!

Thank you, I appreciate your offers!

Most likely, at this point, I'll just have to sucker up and take care of it myself. I am going to speak with a friend of mine WHO IS NOT A CLIMBER to come help me. She has a trailer and the truck to haul sh#t out. Knowing her, she'll tell me not to worry about the gas, or the dump costs and attempt to cover it herself. At which point I will have to strangle her and say NO. She will then respond by beating me senseless.

We'll get it done in the next week or two.

Kev, I do understand what the thread title is, but there is a far bigger picture here than FF. I purposely re-directed this thread for very good reasons. This area is on the East Side of the Sierras. Christ, you can't swing a dead cat in circle without hitting something climbable on public land. Now we are gonna badger some land owner over our ability to climb there?

Also, nobody has even begun to discuss how the liability issues are going to be addressed with the owner. It was clearly stated earlier in this thread that he is in litigation over someone getting injured on his property. This is a big issue. Are climbers going to be forking out money to help him pay for a "climbing" rider on his insurance policy? Probably not. So out of the goodness of his heart, to protect himself, and his interests, he is supposed to pay for this out of his own pocket.

That's f*#ked up.

As far as my being a redneck is concerned, this is laughable at best, and clearly demonstrates just how little people care for others interests and rights if it conflicts with what they want.

One of the few rights and freedoms we enjoy in this country is the right to own property and do as we wish with it (with in certain limits of course). If my defending this very basic right as a denizen of this country makes me a redneck, THEN YEHAAAAW MOTHER F*#KER!

By the way Tony, if I'm a redneck, then you're sounding pretty PINKo to me.

Josh Higgins

Trad climber

San Diego

Jun 15, 2010 - 10:14am PT

Tony - History is cool and all, but the Sierra Club fights tooth and nail against climber access on a regular basis these days. They've done an about-face and turned their back on that specific part of their history. ACSD has to fight them and their slander regularly to keep crags open in San Diego county. I've supported the Sierra Club in the past, but will never do so again (unless they do another 180 which is highly unlikely).

Josh

Gary

climber

Desolation Basin, Calif.

Jun 15, 2010 - 10:30am PT

Josh, we must belong to different Sierra Clubs. I'm a member of the Sierra Club that has successfully worked to get mountaineering trips back in their outings schedule and has sponsored fifth class climbing trips in the Palisades.

As far as Fossil Falls goes, this still seems unsettled. We have a landowner who says he owns something, and a LEO who agrees with him.

That means nothing. Assessor parcel maps mean nothing, they make a pretty picture, but that is all.

When a licensed surveyor goes out there and verifies the property line, then we can start discussing the other issues.

Josh Higgins

Trad climber

San Diego

Jun 15, 2010 - 11:58am PT

Gary,

I no longer belong to the Sierra Club. They fight tooth and nail to shut San Diego crags down and are not open to constructive dialogue. Here in San Diego they are environmental extremists who think they know best and are on some sort of moral high horse. I've heard they do the same in other areas as well.

Josh