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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Oct 26, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
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As I re-read the posts, the end of Tom Patey's last song comes to mind:
Drink it up, fill your cup, have another,
And sow your wild oats while ye may.
For the toothless old tykes of tomorrow,
were the tigers of yesterday.
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 26, 2009 - 12:53pm PT
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Hate to sound like the grumpy codger, but while I agree that the young should enjoy their youth, they should also regale in the rich history of climbing and attempt to appreciate their place in a continuum rather than ignore it.
Too little of that edification in these days of second first ascents.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 26, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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More on the topic of "are there any more FA to climb?" The most obvious answer to this has already been stated: "move on to another area."
But within the Valley most new routes have come from changing the rules. First it was bigger walls and better aid gear and technique, followed by harder free climbing in cracks, based on better training and passive protection. Then much harder steep face climbing. Now all of that is being applied to big walls are free. Parallel to all of that is speed climbing.
More generally, bouldering for fun morphed into serious training and linked up with ground up lead climbing with yo-yo'ing, top-roping, sport climbing, and projects. There is also a small corner reserved for first free solo ascents, with El Cap as the prize. In some respects the antithesis yo-yo’ing, top-toping, sport climbing, and projects. I suppose that on-sight, unroped free soloing is the ultimate point on this continuum.
For most climbers, it would be easier and more fun to get a bunch of climbers, mules, and a camp cook, and pack in a camp and deli into Southern Yosemite. There are huge amounts of unclimbed rock in Southern Yosemite and very little history to memorize.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 26, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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What is new school becomes old school and on and on and.....
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Afghani
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2009 - 01:16pm PT
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Well, it wasn't climbing my first Valley 5.8 but leading it. And that just after 2 months of ever climbing. I can surely say I climb harder than that, but not on the sharp end, yet. I've got to get my head adjusted to the difficulty first.
Leading harder is a goal, not because of the success or to be able to brag about it, but because most of the better climbs are a lot harder than 5.8. You can't do much good climbing at 5.8 or less in the Valley or elsewhere, right? Well, you can, but it's just not as exhilarating. For me at least. I'm a thrill seeker. And I like to be challenged.
There are many things that intrigue me about climbing. The serious exposure and the adrenaline rush you get when completing an extremely difficult climb. Being able to climb the same routes some legends first put up. Finding yourself in some pretty amazing places with some pretty amazing views. The freedom and oneness with the rock and nature you can get that is lost to a lot of people.
History of climbing is definitely cool. What other sport just lets you stroll into a park and just rub elbows with legends? Not many. It's cool to say I actually met a few Stonemasters in person and chat with them on ST and then have them comment on my ridiculous posts...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 26, 2009 - 01:23pm PT
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Well thats what I'm talking about Afghani.
Those punks are missing out.
Its not pain I feel Pate. Its more like wistful amusement.
It appears I have begun a whole other career in climbing under my new name, "Unknown".
LOL
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:11pm PT
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"For most climbers, it would be easier and more fun to get a bunch of climbers, mules, and a camp cook, and pack in a camp and deli into Southern Yosemite. There are huge amounts of unclimbed rock in Southern Yosemite and very little history to memorize."
Yes, little history to memorize, because so little of it has been unearthed! Lots of unrecorded/unreported ascents in them parts, Roger.
Afghani,
Got a hankering to do some FAs eh? Doing it old school style is one of the best ways for the new school to show respect. There is still some virgin rock out there...
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:32pm PT
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Mason- what, you get skooled on a 5.8 that someone did ages ago without sticky rubber or modern gear? That'll make you think about the past, eh?
I admire your beginner enthusiasm, but dude, quit being a kook.
Like others said- it's all just a continuum.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:38pm PT
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Thief!
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Riverside, CA
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Oct 26, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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Norm Kingsley had 200 first ascents, not routes put up, 200 peaks.
He wrote the first English language book on Ice Climbing.
nobody really cares.
The stone remains, the routes remain, there are some climbers popular, others popularized... some promoted themselves, years later threads like "Turd Skimmer" seem infantile, because true or not, they were infantile, and we are all better off treating the climbing with more respect, and allowing some decency for all those persueing the sport, in whatever form they might choose.
What sticks in the craw, is when those that have perhaps bent the rules, proceed to enforce their new version on others. silly, (not Cilly.)
Largo and that guy in the ditch have it right, I would just add that some have attempted to jump onto the enforcement podium, when there was no podium there at all, old farts and new hotshots alike.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Oct 26, 2009 - 05:10pm PT
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Being young and gung-ho and trying to carve your own direction is cool.
Trying to pretend or even worse, believe, that you are the first and biggest shizzle that ever was, is not cool.
I put forth this humble example: A kid (#1)I was working with was playing some new "metal" band on the CD player at work. Another guy (#2)who was there said, man you need to get some old sh*t in here. The other guy (#1) says Hell No, all that old sh*t is lame! I piped in with "Dude, radness wasn't invented yesterday." He spits back "Yes it was." The next day I brought in some Captain Beefheart and put it on the machine. The kid (#1) says, "That's some sick sh*t! When was that recorded?" 1969 I crooned.......He got more interested in "old" stuff after that.
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Oct 26, 2009 - 06:45pm PT
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If old school represents the lasting values of visionaries encouraging to "leave it as it was" - or close as possible for future generations and their natural capabilities - and new school means "next generation abilities," then there's a perfect union. Learning climbing history continually, not to memorize facts, but to develop and maintain good ethics, is essential to improving as a climber, to whichever school you self-identify, and so is getting information from as many sources as possible.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 26, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
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Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite 'em, And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
 attributed to Jonathan Swift.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 26, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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If I can see further, it's because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants.
various sources
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 26, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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If the history is relevant to a particular climber's efforts then it makes sense to pay attention to it. Usually this is only to understand the relevant area or style: it is just practical knowledge. I am guessing that for most climbers who are pushing the envelope in their own time, knowledge of some past climber's routes or style is a source of inspiration, but it may not be very broad. I think that for 70s Valley climbers, Sacherer offered that inspiration—none of us knew him—so it came through his routes and sometimes through Bridwell's stories. But at the time, Sacherer was just one of several great climbers. Nowadays, his singular influence in later climbing seems clearer cut.
There is another element of a relationship to history that is based on just personal interest. There are important moments in the history of Yosemite climbing in the early 20th Century that are not relevant to anyone's current climbing. Sometimes the stories are interesting and have been told in interesting ways; sometimes the history is boring. Filling in all the blanks to understand who did what bushwhack, when, is a matter of personal choice. If the historical climber is still around, there are social issues in the degree to which a modern climber expresses interest. At the Nose50 reunion last year, none of the current hotshots showed up except for Hans and Yugi, which seemed appropriate given the specific connection to the Nose. All the older climbers were surprised, flattered, and happy that anyone cared about what they did 50 years ago. But mostly they were happy to see old friends. They thought it was pretty cool to meet so many name brand climbers from later generations. I am sure that it didn’t occur to any of them that there were many hotshots who could have come but chose not to.
I am also pretty sure that most famous older climbers do not like to be treated with any reverence. There is a fine line of being welcomed and appreciated in someway, but every over-the-hill climber I know, no matter how great in their day, recognizes that the world has moved on. Part of the reason this is so obvious is how strange it sounds if any older climber gets on a high horse about something that they did in the past. It if is not lathered in self deprecating humor, it sucks the air out of the room.
I would say that a new climber will probably learn more about the issues of style and identifying goals worth striving for by getting an understanding of the climbing history. Most everyone would be impressed by the effort. It is also an easy way to be a beginner while engaging old hands. But if you met Caldwell and wanted to talk about climbing El Cap all-free, any reference to history would have to be pretty recent to be interesting.
And I flew to California on a long weekend to hang out with Peter Haan and see Wayne Merry. Didn't climb a thing. I did see for the first time in my life pad people walking off into the woods behind Camp 4.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 26, 2009 - 08:59pm PT
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Pate -
No.
It was.
How did Jerry play that night?
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Oct 26, 2009 - 09:44pm PT
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I found I enjoyed the history after I had climbed for a few years. I guess I understood the perspective better. Plus it was cool to read about the FA's of climbs you had done (especially on older routes).
Mason, just climb! Enjoy it. Yes, climbing harder does open up more possibilities but there a lot of 5.8's and less that are stellar climbs. Just because it says 5.10d (or whatever) it's not an automatic classic.
Homework assignment for next summer. Get Croft's "The Good, the Great, and the Awesome". Pick out a couple of the 5.6 - 5.8 climbs (there are quite a few in the book) and gives a full TR (with pics) when done.
Keep the fire and enthusiasm. Remember, all of us were new to this at some point just like you. Take care.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Oct 26, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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Every generation of climbers adds to the history of climbing. The newest generation is blessed with the stories of all those who came before.
For me, climbing is always more fulfilling when I'm moved by the history of an area.
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The Wolf
Trad climber
Martinez, CA
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Oct 26, 2009 - 10:02pm PT
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It's the natural evolution of things. Do young film directors know the work of Sam Fuller or Anthony Mann? Do young actors know Montgomery Clift? Do young basketball hot shots know Pistol Pete Maravich? In the end it all doesn't really matter, go climbing, have fun and do what you want. I love the history of it all and am happy to share what I know, but you can lead a horse to water........
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MisterE
Trad climber
Canoga Bark! CA
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Oct 26, 2009 - 10:11pm PT
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There is always room in the world for the intrepid.
I would venture that the new school climbers face the larger challenge in this arena - all the plums have been picked. And still the new stuff is sent...the impossible becomes within reach, the spiral spins, ever upward - even amid warriors of entropy - the rise continues..
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