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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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G-Gome has a good idea.
"How about we build a damn pipeline from washington to socal. There are lots of solutions, just no politicians with the balls to implement them."
Yes a large scale "Owens River Project" Take the Snake River and make it flow southwards. Towards the money. It would work.
But Franky ... you love the smelt and would rather see all the people go away, right?
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Maybe we should all keep a hand full
of Smelt in a goldfish bowl
next to the computer to protect
the species.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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Eh, it is only about the smelt because farmers forced the matter into court. If the only way to save the delta as a whole is to piggyback it on the endangered species act, then yes, I'm a smelt lover.
Funny that the farmers think they have a right to the water, and the government shouldn't get to decide how much they get. Given that the government is the only reason they get any water at all. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.
But if you ask me if i choose to support a few fat bellied central valley farmers giving most of their profits to large new york insurance and banking companies or an entire ecosystem, of course i choose the ecosystem (because I'm not an idiot).
These farmers are worse than the people going belly up on their mortgages.
1. They set up farms that require huge amounts of water, in areas with very little water. This is only possible because of government water storage and transfer programs.
2. They build their farms and the land is sold and zoned in such a way that any small downward deviation in water supply means they are out of business.
3. There is a drought and they complain about going out of business, and to avoid it try to do anything they can, including destroying entire ecosystems if necessary.
It all comes down to them being pampered christian conservative as#@&%es.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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The sense of entitlement that these people have is one of the most sickening things about them.
We are farmers and ranchers, we should get everything we want at the expense of everything else.
They picked a stupid business to get into, one with high risk and certain doom on a long enough time scale. Go stand in a breadline in the tenderloin if you want handouts.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Your real bottom line:
"It all comes down to them being pampered christian conservative as#@&%es."
You should know facts about California water use Law, before you spew ignorance.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 04:08pm PT
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ok there buddy, tell me the fact you have in mind that is going to destroy any statement i made.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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It all comes down to them being pampered christian conservative as#@&%es.
Talk about a moronic generalization!
From what I understand, farmers that were getting water from Millerton lake mad a deal with enviro-nazi's to allow water to be diverted from Millerton if the farmers could get Delta water.
The Enviro's got theirs and then screwed the farmers on their Delta water.
http://www.fresnobee.com/local/story/1658780.html
With the screen installations though it looks like the farmers may get their water...eventually.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 04:12pm PT
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I threw that in there for you :)
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Texas is building a six inch pipeline from Northern Canada to Houston. A Canadian friend claims if those Texans can suck as hard as they blow they will have all the water they need.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 04:56pm PT
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"Their" water sums up your view of the situation. Why do they own it, at the expense of the public, both in regard to public dollars for the water projects, and public assets in terms of the delta.
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apogee
climber
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franky, you were doing great with your argument until you brought in the christian a$$hole part- that always sets off the christians (understandably). Stay focussed on the issue (I'm right there with you).
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Frank, since the farmers provide a valuable resource for the state, they are entitled to farming water. One of the most fundamental duties of government is to provide basic infrastucture (after defense, that is) for the welfare of society.
That water going from Norcal not only goes to food providers in the Central Valley, but to our bros down in So Cal. They are entitled to it as tax-paying Californians!
The politicians are a big part of the problem. Instead of looking after the welfare of their constituents thay're suppose to SERVE, they're typically feathering their own nests and listening to lobbyists for marching orders.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 05:25pm PT
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I disagree that they are "entitled" to anything.
You are being a hypocrite, sure they need water to farm, every business needs resources to run. You think they should get water essentially for nothing but paying taxes? Why don't I get free bike tires to ride to work?
Why are they entitled to water, even at the expense of the environment? A healthy delta has real dollar value, you can neglect any "save the environment for the environment's sake" argument, and they are still requesting us to throw away money by destroying the delta. The salmon industry is just the very tip of the iceberg.
If we allocate 99.99% of the water to farmers and cities, and there was one last living fish in the backwash that remains, you guys would ask for the last 0.01%. That is really what they are doing now.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If we do away with California farmers (to Save Our Smelt), how do we expect to buy any local produce?
I don't give a damn if my veggies all come from Mexico and Chile, and I don't give a damn how much more carbon/greenhouse gasses are dumped into the environment to get it here.
I always thought the whole *buy local* idea was idiotic anyway.
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apogee
climber
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"If we do away with California farmers (to Save Our Smelt), how do we expect to buy any local produce?"
I'd be happy to buy rice or cotton products that were grown in an environment that was more conducive to their extreme water needs (even if it costs more). Seems pretty reasonable to me.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2009 - 05:38pm PT
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This debate has nothing to do with local produce. Your argument is ridiculous in that you are assuming that saving the delta means no farming in california. That is not the case. There is a TON of farming in the central valley, even this year. This is just a case of farmers not being happy unless they get to squeeze every last drop of blood out of the turnip.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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In california, we grow rice in the desert.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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This debate has nothing to do with local produce. Your argument is ridiculous in that you are assuming that saving the delta means no farming in california.
And aren't you assuming that saving farming means no more smelt?
And Wes, sure the majority of the produce goes elsewhere. We provide food for quite a few folks. Should we just grow enough for Cal?
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