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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 13, 2009 - 01:45am PT
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Nice Posts Louie
Peace
Karl
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fourmiletrail
climber
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May 13, 2009 - 02:01am PT
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It would have been better to let the holds break if they were gonna break (no glue) , and let the route evolve naturally like other good routes that have change over time . But I appriciate Louie's candor . Good thread topic too .
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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May 13, 2009 - 11:49am PT
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"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
Enough said.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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May 14, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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Great quote from Teddy!
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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May 14, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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One of the interesting things about doing new routes at some of these sport climbing areas is that in many cases the rock is covered by a regular jacket of choss that has to be pried off to expose the holds that will eventually be used. I can think of several instances of this out at Malibu and Echo.
Take Mt. Gorgeous, now one of the most popular areas out there. When we first went there I doubted there was anything worth doing since the lower part of the wall was so piss poor and covered with loose shite. Joe K. and I spent an entire afternoon prying flakes and crap off it with a full-sized crowbar, and I'm talking about big stuff too. The wall was still loose - top to bottom - for a few seasons till the routes got done like 1,000 times. Parts of it are loose to this day . . . It's choss, after all.
And the area by the dam (Drifter wall??) with the long, slanting 12a on it - that wall was totally excavated. I know because I considered excavating the thing myself and was put off by the amount of work involved.
Same for some of the stuff up on The Wave, and a whole lot of stuff out at Echo has clearly been unearthed and fashioned to some extent(Pico Raquilita, Boney Bluffs, etc).
Exactly where "hold chipping" and the excavation process cross, or become the same thing, is an interesting question. I remember when we were putting up stuff on Mt. Olympus (cobbles), we'd set the anchors and then spend hours banging on the cobles with a framing hatchet to try and knock all the loose stuff off. Sometimes a cobble would bust off leaving a good hole. Is this "chipping?" Probably.
But then there's a another specie of chipping that basically attacks a smooth wall and literally gouges/pounds out holds, as was done on the Nose face traverse (unbelievably ugly and something pretty much overlooked and rearly mentioned on Free Nose discussions). Such chipping or wholesale hold making dates back to the early days at Stoney (and long before) with the steps chopped into the face of Boulder 2. Such intentional hold manufacturing has never been sanctioned on good rock, but on choss, where the medium is far more plastic, the issue becomes a lot more cloudy.
JL
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smith curry
climber
nashville,TN
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May 14, 2009 - 06:10pm PT
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Hey, have any of y'all READ the NOVEL "Refiner's Fire?"? It's by Mark Helprin, and it's amazing.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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May 14, 2009 - 06:27pm PT
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interesting
I don't know that it becomes less clear as much as, there seems to be a required justification for anything that has the hallmark of being a heavy handed technique.
Not that it can't be done as an absolute principle, but the specifics of how and why become more important and whether someone opposes the action or causes the action, both owe justifications. They must be able to say that for a particular instance the glue or the hammer or prybar was necessary or not.
In my mind, glue is pretty much not justifiable. I don't mean that in an ill manner, just that reinforcing of a hold seems to set a bad precedent. But it does matter that 'it is how we talk about the issue' that is important. That we consider the impacts and effects, whether choss or not. Can a glued hold be justified to any land manager?
cleaning/chipping is in a similar category, but only because we talk about chipping in a loose way, and don't agree on what the definition is. If the definition is clear, by virtue of the specific actions taken, for any effort that is like cleaning or chipping then we'll all make sure we are comfortable telling anyone why and how we did our action. correct?
thoughts?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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May 14, 2009 - 06:37pm PT
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I remember the Refiner's Fire thing. Enhancing holds (glued in that case, so maybe preserving holds is a better term) was not the main issue at the time. Rather it was the full-on, no-holds-barred verbal assault on the guy who claimed he had climbed a route near the top of the scale (at the time) when he had no tick list of the standard-setting routes of the moment to establish credibility. From the outside it seemed pretty brutal-- sort of like the 5.14 club wasn't going to let anybody in who they did not think was worthy.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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May 14, 2009 - 08:44pm PT
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werd
You know what's really f'd up, I kind sorta used to think along those lines, that because elite climber's could pull stuff, they were special. But in my case I've been a punter a long time, so I'm even more hopeless.
The same elitist approach/barage that was thrown to LA was way heavy handed. But that's all behind now. We're talking about the future.
I'll stop bumping this thread now. Sorry, the philosophical issues get the juices flowing.
-edit, ok, they are special, but in a different way.
Damn, let's get some climbing done this weekend. fuk ya!
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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May 16, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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At the time the issue was not about modification of rock but veracity of reportage.
F it, this story died years ago.
Talk about beating a dead horse.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 17, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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Well there's a log on the fire...
"In my mind, glue is pretty much not justifiable. I don't mean that in an ill manner, just that reinforcing of a hold seems to set a bad precedent. But it does matter that 'it is how we talk about the issue' that is important. That we consider the impacts and effects, whether choss or not. Can a glued hold be justified to any land manager?"
I agree with Largo that these things are area dependent. Land Managers don't see glued holds (unless they read climbing forums where climbers fight about them)
and climbers who use a choss area where much gardening and gluing are required don't tend to fight about it, it's either that or no climbing.
On the other issue, I know squat. It's funny how climbing generates these controversies where people who otherwise seem great are accused of lying by people who otherwise seem great, often using good examples and logic. Seems like we know if we've arrived at a truth cause nobody seems to fess up and say "yeah I lied" and on the other hand, it's hard to prove a negative.
What to do? Our wholes lives and identities are built around illusions.
Peace
Karl
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 17, 2009 - 02:26am PT
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It does seem a bit silly to get all worked up about a little section of rock;....and for most people;...yeah;...who gives a squck?........BUT for guys like Leavitt, Cozgrove, Boone, and , at the time, a few others who were on a single-minded mission to climb the hardest climbs in America;....hell yeah; it's a big deal.......To those guys I say, Bravo, hats off, and yeeehooo........I appreciate their dedication, motivation, eccentric thinking, and intense drive and unbelievable talent and focus............I can easily see their disappointment when they found the route to be unclimbable to them (for whatever reason).......for the rest of us punters;....it's just all a bunch of hype, flap, TMZ, Enquirer, poparazzi, .....a curiousity at best......AND it's so old new that the dust on this story is making me sneeze. Once again, a big Bravo and hip hip horray to Louie, Leavitt, Coz, Boone, Sharma, Lindner, and all those other crazies who have the talent and motivation to pull THAT hard...........it's madness, for sure!.......Doing FA's is alot of fun;....but can get stinky....... controversy and funk don't slow down guys like Louie, Coz, Boone, Sharma, Lindner, or Leavitt;........that kind of RAD has a head of steam that is plowing down the tracks like a freight train.........best to stand back and admire the awesomeness of their ability, drive , motivation , and creative flow......and ignore the few fleas on these awesome dogs........(Sometimes we accidently smell the manure that the beautiful flowers are growing in..........)
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
the greasewood ghetto
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May 17, 2009 - 05:05am PT
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Largo : " I spent an entire afternoon prying flakes and crap off it with a full-sized crowbar, and I'm talking about big stuff too. The wall was still loose - top to bottom - for a few seasons till the routes got done like 1,000 times. Parts of it are loose to this day . "
Just climb it or not , but a crowbar ?
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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May 17, 2009 - 12:02pm PT
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I think Todd is a wise and insightful man.
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 17, 2009 - 02:21pm PT
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My last post in this thread will be this:
In response to Scott's (Coz) post above, I would have you call Boone and ask him, as you obviously do not remember the sequence of events. Boone called me, asking for beta on the beginning sequence of the crux section. When I gave him my beta, he was not visualizing it and couldn't understand what I was describing to him. Upon further discussion, we (both of us) realized that this was because I was describing features that were no longer there (or at least no longer usable). I had no knowledge of the damaged holds at all until that call from Boone. For all I know they were in the same condition when you and Randy attempted the route.
Rob Mulligan and I went out there two days later and saw the condition of the holds for ourselves. That was when Rob shot photos of the scars and together we sent something to Duane Raleigh at the climbing magazine. His response letter gave me a huge insight into the climbing media and its accurate portrayal of the sport. I wish I still had it (and later communications) as I would post them in their entirety. I guarantee many would be shocked at his comments and the language used as the (then) Editor of the magazine. In a nutshell, he said that they had devoted enough space to the issue already and that while what had been printed may not have been accurate, that they had no intention of making any corrections or clarifications. He then proceeded to print further letters (except for mine) and the portion of Boone's interview article that addressed his thoughts on the route. I sent in a response letter to the comments in that interview and again was told that they were not interested in printing them or hearing further from me on the issue. Also that he had spoken to Boone about my responses and realized that some of Boone's responses had been taken out of context and were probably misleading, but that he felt that the flavor of the comments as presented in the article added "flair" to the feature. Again, no effort was going to be made to correct the misleading implications. At this point I realized that nothing would ever be reported fairly with them and I decided to stop trying.
You obviously have your beliefs and I guess you're entitled to them - to each their own, but enough time has gone by and I've had enough other positive climbing experiences and relationships since that route that I can't bring myself to allow this to affect me any further. I've already put that chapter in my life behind me. You guys were on a mission at the time; a mission that you more than fully accomplished.
At the time, my amazement and hurt revolved around how vengeful you all were in your attacks. I was also very surprised at how the climbing media picked their champions and patently ignored all other aspects of "the story." This type of attack is something that's happened many times over in the history of our sport (think Wings of Steel for one example), and until that time I took as fact everything that I read in the magazines and elsewhere. I now know better than to do that so blindly.
As time has gone by, the bigger regret and impact has become the fact that a route that I put a year and a half of my life into, and finally succeeded on, was destroyed and is no more. Maybe the route will be climbed again at some point in its current state, maybe not. I hope that it will as I truly think it could be done with the smaller holds and provide a very difficult standard for the area. The fact that's it's located at a backwater crag may not make it attractive enough to today's top climbers though, so it will probably remain as it is. To me that's really sad.
As I said, I'm done with this thread. Believe what you will - I've done what I can to bring out the facts and offer them up to you all. Whether you choose to believe them or not no longer affects me. I've long since gone on to other great climbing projects and experiences. Some I've succeeded on and others I've walked away from to have others redpoint them (or not). I'm still out there looking for (and often finding) new areas and lines. That process of discovery and challenge is what fuels my climbing and keeps me motivated. I hope that never ends.
Happy climbing to you all...
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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May 17, 2009 - 05:32pm PT
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This is an interesting thread because I was a pretty young climber at the time this all happened and it was pretty eye opening to watch the drama unfold. I really appreciate Louie stepping in and giving his side of the story here, and in such a non-confrontational manner. I can see how this would have been a difficult time for you and you show some real maturity to be able to talk about it in the manner that you have. Thanks.
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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May 17, 2009 - 07:31pm PT
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I believe it is important for people to "come clean" before they can really "move on."
That's probably why it is part of the "12 step program."
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Mar 14, 2019 - 11:02am PT
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Bump
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couchmaster
climber
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Mar 14, 2019 - 12:36pm PT
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I REFUSE TO POST ON THIS VERY IMPORTANT AND SIGNIFICANT THREAD. Next point. Has anyone heard that Honnold Free-freakin soloed El Cap?
True story. No rope...and to those who say it's just like the moon landings I will not discuss it with you further.
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