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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 11, 2009 - 05:17pm PT
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Back in the day, around the time of the Leavitt "I will pay anyone $1000 if they can repeat this route" controversy, it was reported in the mags that the climb had been "erased with a cold chisel". I was rereading some old climbing mags the other day and noticed this again and I still don't understand what that means. Were the bolts chopped or were the actual holds on the climb chiselled off?
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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May 11, 2009 - 05:30pm PT
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I don't have an answer for ya.
But I will say your timing is downright spooky.
Maybe socalbolter or leavittator will chime in.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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May 11, 2009 - 05:40pm PT
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I'm not sure of that, but I had heard that Bachar
had once made an offer if anyone could follow him
(climbing, of course) for a day, he'd pay them $10,000.
No one ever took him up on it, for good reason.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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May 11, 2009 - 05:54pm PT
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Much banter and -exspeculation has been written upon the subject.
Check wreck.dork.climbing for starters.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 11, 2009 - 06:22pm PT
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glorified bolted boulder problem, louie anderson said he sent, boone speed -- who is tits on that kind of climbing and was at the height of his game at the time -- tried it said it was full-on-drop-the-clutch cranking just to stay in place on a move, some people figure anderson never did it, the vast, vast majority of us do not care one way or the other, this is a non-event tempest-in-a-teapot blip from 20 years ago.
why do you ask?
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Well, if it's just that the bolts were chopped off, there could be a hard boulder problem left there to send. If the holds were what was chopped off, though? Probably nothing. It's interesting if only for the role controversies have in our sport. Like the American sport climbing version of the Cerro Torre controversy.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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May 11, 2009 - 08:05pm PT
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i doubt that it was the holds got chopped. i think part of the deal is that there were no holds to begin with. just a razor-thin offset seam to lieback with nothing for the feet. that's why nobody can climb it.
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Burt
Social climber
Yucaipa, Ca
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May 11, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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The "fire" is there but some holds appeared to have been chopped. I was just up there about a month ago and I could see some holds missing and some nice hammer marks where they used to be. I was around there when L.A. was working it, hell of a nice guy, did he send it? Who know and who cares, it is far from a "boulder problem" as some have spouted, it is an amazing looking route and a very steep wall that one day gets a proper ascent by the next generation. I grew up in Apple Valley and its a far cry from world class but I will always defend home; but the narrow mindedness of people is scary. I can just remember the scene at my buddies very small and unsuccessful climbing store in Apple Valley with Randy L. and other people just in a craze of this route. I was only like 14 I think I just was kinda appalled that climbers held such a hatred towards each other, and jump at the chance to call out and publicly hang fellow climbers which still is around to this day. Freak it's just a rock, go find and adventure has always been my feelings and before you call it unclimbable, or try to say it's out of that persons league maybe you should get on it and send away and if you haven't found success walk away and admire the ability of the other guy. I am sure some of you old yosemite guys on here never would have thought that the Nose, North American Wall, Muir, (I could go on and on) would go free, now it is becoming more normal to see free teams then aid teams. Just my 2 cents
Kurt "Burt"
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 11, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
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A few folks directed me to this thread. Without getting too far into it; primarily because it is really old news and because Randy and I have long since discussed this and put it behind us, but also because I don't much care:
Yes, many holds were hammered off the route. As far as I know all of the bolts remain there today.
When Boone was out trying the route, the holds had already been removed. In fact, I was alerted to that by a phone call from Boone himself. Went out a couple of days later with a photog friend and saw what remained. He took photos of the rock scars and we sent a short letter to the climbing mag telling them what had happened, along with copies of the photos. This was prior to the Boone Speed article BVB quoted above, but the editor seemed to think that the continuation of the scandal would read better than the truth. Boone also knew what had happened to the holds when he made those statements, but no mention was made of that fact.
BVB is somewhat correct in that over the 45-50 foot length of the route, there is/was (?) only about 15-20 feet of really hard climbing. The rest was easy 5.12. I can't remember what exactly remains of the holds, but with climbing standards where they are today, I've often wondered if it would still go with the much smaller holds that exist now. For a local crag, it's a nice looking line, but hardly world class. That said, if anyone happens to find themselves in the area and can climb hard 5.14 or easy 5.15 (?) there might just be something there for them...
 Louie
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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May 11, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
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Why would anybody want to remove the holds?
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 11, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
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Good question - never did figure that out.
The only plausible reason we could come up with was that some of the holds on the route had been glue-reinforced. Back around that time, there were a few other instances of reinforced holds being removed off of routes in Joshua Tree and elsewhere in SoCal.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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May 12, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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Louie = Maesrti ? What does donini think ? Leavitt ?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 12, 2009 - 04:46pm PT
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I know about bolt chopping, but hold removal? They must have been glued or chipped to begin with?
I vaguely remember this dust-up, only because I had just read Refiner's Fire and thought the main character never would have been a sport climber.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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May 12, 2009 - 04:57pm PT
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Knott knowing any of the players involved, I assumed the whole RF thing was a hoax, since
the route supposedly represented a quantum leap in the abilities of the FA-ist (LA). What other
5.14 routes were done by him prior or since - considering 5.14b was pretty rare at the time?
Why do I care? Well, there's a certain bullshít artist in Marin who was notorious for claiming things
he absolutely didn't do. In fact, there are a few lesser frauds locally who have been duly exposed.
I took these guys at their word until I found out the truth. I suppose I take this stuff personally.
It is a "weakness" I freely admit to - shame on me.
Yet we're told time and time again that "it doesn't matter" or "who cares?", which conveniently sidesteps the issue.
We all want to be able to take climbers at their word, but historically there are too many glaring examples of climbers
––who later were proved to be making shít up––knott to be cynical. Too much trust has been violated. Trust is sacred.
[/rant]
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handsome B
Gym climber
SL,UT
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May 12, 2009 - 06:49pm PT
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because he is still using the same chipping tactics in 2009
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socalbolter
Sport climber
Silverado, CA
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May 12, 2009 - 07:51pm PT
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So hard not to get sucked in when people are speaking untruths about what, at the time, was the culmination of a lot of hard work on my part.
There are NO chipped holds on that route at all. There were a dozen or so thin flakes that had been glue-reinforced. Reinforcing is either something you are OK with or are not OK with. I guess I'll leave that judgment up to you, but you should know that the total amount of epoxy used on that route would have fit in the palm of your hand. No holds were glued on, rather some potentially friable flakes were reinforced with epoxy behind them. At the time (and now) glue-reinforcing is commonplace on hard routes (and not so hard routes) in many SoCal climbing areas. This route was no different in that regard from many dozens of hard routes elsewhere, and was located in a climbing area that already had chipped and/or reinforced holds on some of its other most difficult routes.
As for my abilities: at the time that route was two letter grades harder than my hardest prior redpoints; not exactly a quantum leap forward. In the years since I have succeeded on a half dozen other 5.14 routes, with at least one of them being of a comparable difficulty to Refiner's Fire. It's worth noting too that the version of the route that I redpointed (prior to hold removal) was considerably easier than what Boone tried and what is there now.
The bottom line is that the uproar around my redpoint (and Randy's challenge of it) was a painful chapter in my life, and one that showed me the dirty underside of our sport's supposed camaraderie and media press. I've tried to be a far more private individual since then and can tell you without hesitation that our sport is far more rewarding to me now for having made that decision.
And for what it's worth, I too believe that trust is sacred.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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May 12, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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BVB: "the vast, vast majority of us do not care one way or the other, this is a non-event tempest-in-a-teapot blip from 20 years ago."
Which puts it smack dab in the main stream of topics here, hehe.
Whichever generation logs on, pretty much relives its wars-- '50s, 60s, 70s, '80s, they all represent.
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MH2
climber
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May 12, 2009 - 09:39pm PT
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Funny, I find myself caring more about this than about Cerro Torre. I understand the fundamental importance of telling the truth, always, if you place any importance on other peoples' opinion of your word. I cannot fathom why those holds would be chopped, though. Is there a simple answer? Or was it just craziness? What was gained?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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May 12, 2009 - 11:37pm PT
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socalbolter--I've been to the Riverside Quarry exactly once (I live in CO was just visiting So Cal--had a great time. Just sayin.
For people to get bent out of shape about alleged chipping or whatever AT A FREAKING QUARRY (sitting above a garbage dump) is really, really strange.
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jack splat
climber
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May 13, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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Why not just post up an unedited video of yourself sending one of your current 5.14b's?
That would lay to rest a lot of doubts and doubters.
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