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MikeL
climber
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Apr 22, 2009 - 09:51pm PT
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Just how significant are your beliefs when weighed against the situation? What can it hurt to say a prayer, Patrick? How much is one's own personal beliefs worth? (Oh, yeah, I forgot--this is Supertopo.)
No one REALLY knows about God or the other side of death, anyway.
EDIT: Light a candle.
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ontos
Boulder climber
Washington DC
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Apr 22, 2009 - 09:54pm PT
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Mike, if we compromise our beliefs we are nothing. If we are anything, we are that which we believe whatever that might be.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 22, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
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The wheel is motion.
What will you do?
Do you know who turns the wheel?
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Apr 22, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
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there is no god...
cut and dried
all you can really do is think positively about that person....
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 23, 2009 - 12:13am PT
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If there is a spiritual reality that's outside the common conceptions of organized faith, your good vibes and loving attention may certainly benefit.
If you really believe in nothing at all beyond the meat, then we're all toast soon enough and you lose nothing by giving any sort of prayer a go. If you were wrong, maybe it will open you to a change of heart.
Wanna walk a line of integrity? You yourself have experienced the power and grace of Love. We all Have. A religions celebrate unselfish love as an expression of the Divine.
So pray to the Heart of Love itself. It's an aspect of God we already know and are devoted to and there's no shame in respecting it.
Much Love
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 23, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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Patrick, say a prayer asking for God's acceptance to his KIngdom. Then say whever you want after Amen.
He will be accepted but just say the prayer for him. He would want that.
Sorry about your bro, that's rough. Sorry, paddy, call me when you come back here.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Apr 23, 2009 - 12:40am PT
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the simple fact that you care, that you wrote to your friends about it -- that is a prayer.
i too am a 'wretched atheist' well, today. tomorrow might be different. but today i live in today.
my best buddy from college died in my arms, in '96. and many of his buddies, a bunch of whom quick became my buddies, did the same. think SF in the late 80's/early 90's.
~~~
as my pal John was dying, this teeny ancient hospice nurse from NZ found me crying my eyes out, out in the garage. and she said to me "listen, whenever it seems too much for you, just do some small thing, anything, for the one you love. a cup of tea, a read from a book, listen to some music, a foot massage, a warm bath -- i dunno, anything. anything you can do that simply shows you give a sh!t, that is enough."
"trust me on this," she said, "you'll have the rest of your life to mourn, if you really need to. but just now focus on doing something actually useful, even just a small thing."
~~~
surely the best advice anyone has ever given me.
and i simply pass it on. stay close to all those who hurt. just be there. just give them, well, you. do anything that might be a moment's solace on a really bad day.
for that is a prayer -- as best this wretched atheist can understand it.
^,,^ (michael)
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Double D
climber
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Apr 23, 2009 - 12:49am PT
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Patrick, my prayers go out to you and your family. Prayer is a very powerfull tool if you are willing to listen.
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Dirka
Trad climber
SF
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Apr 23, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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Blessings to your family. I have always found some solace in the old saying, "just because you don't believe in God, it doesn't mean that he doesn't believe in you."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Apr 23, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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Patrick,
As a fellow son o' the ol' sod who has strayed from the true path I apologize for not having the fluency of Karl or Pip; nicely put by those lads. Since I'v been pressed of late by similar travails I can only affirm that there is something beyond us into which we can tap and with which we can nourish.
Peace,
Reilly
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 23, 2009 - 01:37am PT
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Ask others who do believe to start praying for him.
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Anastasia
climber
Not here
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Apr 23, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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If you don't believe in prayer, take it as a form of well wishing. Use it to sit quietly and focus on the outcome you want to happen.
Beyond that... I think we each have a philosophy about life. In times of stress we must reflect upon that philosophy and adjust it to fit the situation.
I am really sorry about your brother and I will be "well wishing him" tonight. I do hope for him to have the best of all outcomes.
WIth My Best Regards,
Anastasia Frangos
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 23, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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hmmm...
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 23, 2009 - 02:05am PT
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During WWII all the wives girlfriends mothers etc etc prayed for their soldiers to survive and make it home after the war.
When the solders were killed and didn't return home many became atheists because they thought their prayers went unanswered.
The wheel is set in motion ........
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
Tampa, FL
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Apr 23, 2009 - 02:05am PT
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I'm with Pip on this one.
The act of "praying" need not be associated with god or religion. Its merely concentrating your thoughts or actions in a loved ones direction.
You say you'll "hope" or send vibes. If you hope to yourself "I hope he makes it," that is a prayer.
Haven't you ever noticed how often times when you think or talk about someone you haven't seen in a while they show up or call?
Connections baby, connections. Undeniable, I feel.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
Tampa, FL
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Apr 23, 2009 - 02:11am PT
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If you think it, they will come.
Its the same as difficult climbing. If you don't "believe," you can't climb.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Apr 23, 2009 - 02:12am PT
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well Patric, you could dig back to the best wishes for dirtineye thread, started by a highly devout mormon lass, for me, and find a lot of good insight from people about this very subject.
I'm like you, a non-beleiver. I can tell you that , as I am about to kick it, I REALLY do wish there were some higher power. BUT I don;t think there is.
So for myself, I alternately WISH for one, I consider attempting to contact the higher power ( calling all gods, where are you?) but it just seems to ring hollow to me.
So that leaves, nothign but ourself to turn to.
Forget friends and family. they are good to a point, but they can't go past THE point which is where YOU need to go.
Wish I had a good answer for you.
however, having only THIS REALITY is not so bad, once you accept it, especially if you accept it in time to actually make use of tha knowledge in a positive way. that part is up to you.
In fact, when you accept that there is nothing else beyond here, you have a huge responsibility to make use of your life in a good way. THis can be ( and I absolutely this word) empowering. that damned PC new age word actually seems to fit in this context, although I shall now spend a LONG time trying to espress the sentiment ina better way, that doea not use the word empower, LOL.
So anyway, Grab this bull by the horns ( love a good cliche) and take the responsiblility, adn DO THE BEST YOU CAN to make him feel better. I can't tell youy what that will be, but as his brother, you will come up with something if you think about it enough. Just see what yuo can do to help his outlook-- which is pretty bleak. it's not easy, trust e, I have been going through this for several years now, and there are lots of ups and downs. BUT as long as you do the best you can, that's all anyone can ask.
My gues is that talking with your brother about good things you two did together woudl make a nice start. In my experience, people in this situation do NOT like to talk about how bad they feel unless they bring it up, so don't you bring that sort of thing up ever. Don't be afraid to broach subjects that might be sad, just do it in a way that is positive, and if it goes over badly, drop it quick and move to something else. Tell him you love him, if that's true. Dying people tend to have a pretty good crap detector LOL.
OK it's late, I'm burnt and I think I've said enough for now anyway. if you want to talk about this, send me an email or call. My email is the one I registered for ST with if you want to use it.
One more thing-- you'll find you have an inner reserve that you cna rely on for help wiht this. TRust me, it's there.
Curt
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
Tampa, FL
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Apr 23, 2009 - 02:21am PT
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tr - In this instance, your thoughts of Travis aren't genuine or selfless. Its like me saying I'm thinking of a million dollars - I aint got it.
Dirt - maybe you could pluck out one of those awesome songs of yours for ol' Patrick.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 23, 2009 - 04:54am PT
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The Alpine, nails it!
"when you accept that there is nothing else beyond here, you have a huge responsibility to make use of your life in a good way"
How could life have any more meaning than that?
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Apr 23, 2009 - 05:11am PT
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So, you are proclaiming man love for Paddy? NTTIAWWT!
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