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paganmonkeyboy
climber
mars...it's near nevada...
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Feb 12, 2009 - 09:48am PT
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considering mom and dad usually both work now, and the teacher and the television are really the only two consistent influences on the children while mom and dad are really just too busy/tired/whatever to even bother paying attention to little jimmy and kimmy - we are probably not paying them half of what we should be...
think about it - the average telemarketer makes as much as the person *teaching your child*...don't you think we should pay teachers top dollar, to attract the best and brightest to the calling ? this is far, far more important than paying those clowns in marketing...
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 12, 2009 - 09:49am PT
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You guys flap all you want to about education;.....a subject where everyone is an expert......except the teachers. I don't tell my doctor how to practice medicine, my car mechanic how to fix my car, my dentist how to fix a tooth, .....but everyone tells the teacher how to teach. If you REALLY want to know about education and teaching.....TRY asking a teacher......they MIGHT know alittle bit about the subject.........but naaah;..probably not;.....for they are just over-paid knuckleheads who can't find a job doing anything else and besides;...they SUCK at their jobs anyways;.....look at our test scores and drop out rate.....(damn teachers....).......gotta go........today we have our Valentine's party in my kindergarten class.........it should be a blast! If teachers can't do their job......shit can them;....just like out in the REAL world......(If it were only that simple........)..........thanks for all the great suggestions,...but the bottom line is.........flap on...gotta run...I have important work to do......I will respectfullly ignore your finger pointing, blaming, trash talking, and "great" advice......(See;...teachers are good at SOMETHING.....).....After about 30 years of teaching, I still find alot of it interesting, fun, enjoyable, and rewarding.....it's crazy at times...but them I just go climbing..........Teachers have been societies whipping boy ever since the firt day a kid lifted a pencil...and it will always be that way;....parents, kids, politicians and such don't want to take the blame......any day is kick a teacher day.....but don't forget;....we have calloused butts from decades of boots......
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:04am PT
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obviously Todd, you're only in it for the money.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:32am PT
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OK....ready to have the great educational questions answered?......just ask the smartest people you know,....How did you get so smart;........they will SURELY be able to give you the answer everyone is looking for......For me, ...I know about 5 people who really are experts in all subjects.....the great thinking minds of our era;....they would be Chongo Chuck, Tucker Tech, Bill Russel, Russ Walling, and Dean Fidelman.........(Any subject brought up, they seem to know it all......)......ask them....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:36am PT
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Three Cheers for TG! Anyone who has survived thirty years in the under-appreciated and underpaid trenches of education has my unabashed respect. They've earned it!
My wife is over twenty years in and I will tell you it is a calling not a killing.
Teaching is the most critical job of all and teachers get a raw deal at almost every turn. As an electrician I give a large price discount to teachers. I may be the only one who does but it is my small way of paying back the un-payable debt.
The value that teachers at all levels and in all things bring to our society should never be flippantly ignored or simply expected.
There are lots of problems in public education but teacher over pay or under-qualification are nowhere the list.
By the way you want to make an effective change in student behavior and attention in schools and reduce the obscene overmedicating of school children at the same time. Eliminate the institutional florescent lighting. There is scads of evidence about the negative effects of florescent lights on the human psyche.
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:37am PT
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Measuring teacher performance is exceedingly difficult.
Most stupidly assume that how well kids test is somehow related to the quality of teachers. By the time kids hit schools, they already have for the most part had both their intellectual potential and their motivations set. This has been well known for several decades now.
Case in point:
Rajmit is Dean's list in College (just missed Provost's) but had roughly B average in a public HS. He plans to transfer because the college is too easy. His school sent well over 90% of the kids to college. Average Board scores were not that impressive compared to neighboring schools which were more "uniformly white and asian", because it had a significant population of "under-achievers", many of whom also took the college boards."
Maybe we could try to figure out why some of his "peers" were taking sophomore courses at Princeton University when they were HS juniors. I don't think it had anything to do with the teachers they had, except to the extent that maybe they got out of the kids' way.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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Feb 12, 2009 - 10:49am PT
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I want to be a volunteer aide in Todd's class the days Russ substitutes. I think he'd be really good at it.
think of the innovative spelling words!
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Kupandamingi
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:07am PT
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I sympathesize with poorly paid teachers, but some around here (Marin public schools in particular) pull in pretty good money (upwards of $80k or so for a seasoned, but not salty friend of mine). Also driving down shattuck in Berkeley yesterday I did find it rather odd to have teachers picketing on the street for an improved compensation package - particularly in light of the fact that California is near bankrupt and many private sector folks are losing their jobs. Moreover, teachers pensions (as I understand it at least) are largely protected (e.g. guaranteed) and, as such, haven't been reduced by 40% as with most private sector folks. Good people do teach - and not for the money as their are clearly more lucrative career choices out there. However - as with any moderate paying public sector gig some end up there as a default career as a result of not wanting to compete in more competitive fields. The same is true of the non-profit sector (and I reason I left it for international work years ago) - some good people, but also many who were bottom of the barrel. Those who teach out of passion are far more patient than me and deserve our praise and respect
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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This just happened in my district yesterday.
http://lodinews.com/articles/2009/02/11/update/teacher.web.2.22.txt
It may help with the 10% to 20% cuts we are going to have next year. With about 4000 district employees this will hurt our local economy. Four hundred plus staff will lose thier jobs next year.
365 teachers
20 from the psychologist, counselor, program specialist unit
14.5 from administration
This does not include classified staff.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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"I am in favor of programs that measure student performance and reward teachers/schools that improve base scores..."
Problem with that Fatty is that the priority becomes the test scores...
And, there is the assumption that the tests are worthy when so much is as stake.
So much more exists that is not measurable by "test scores"
"...but it all starts at home."
That is true.
Cheers,
DD
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 12, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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Regarding CA teacher's salaries, they may be top in the nation but that's not taking into account cost of living. Even though starting teacher's pay in Indiana is around $32K, I bet you have more buying power than you do in CA making $55K?
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kwit
climber
california
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Feb 12, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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BOTTOM LINE: TEACHERS ARE UNDERPAID.
teaching is difficult, requires long hours inside and outside of the classroom, can never, ever be phoned-in if you want to do it well, has an incredibly difficult audience (students with differing needs, abilities, and desires, and parents with different ideas about what school should be), and requires the ability to constantly remain optimistic, positive, helpful, compassionate, and available even in an atmosphere of societal excoriation, distrust, and disinterest.
please. tell me teachers make too much, or even enough money to my face and i will punch you.
not to end on the negative, however: teaching is also brilliant, crucial, and the cornerstone of modern democracy. and can be the most beautiful experience in the world.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Feb 12, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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OK, as a HS Physics and Earth Science teacher, I would like to say . . .
Teaching is the hardest best job you'll ever do. The personal rewards are great, the pay sucks, and you don't do it for the money and the time-off in the summer. If you do, you will soon leave the career very disappointed --- it isn't worth it. You will sleep to catch up on your energy, and the grading and lesson planning can go late into the night.
It has been said, "Those who can --- do. Those who can't --- teach." I say bullsh#t. You don't know your subject until you have to teach it to others. I teach and I do. I do research on my own time. I continue to take courses and stay abreast of the latest developments and discoveries in physics and earth science. Science isn't static we are always pushing into and gaining new knowledge. That is the purpose of pure science.
Most students are great to teach and wonderful to know. Then there are those like Russ Walling, who are a hand-full. Imagine teaching a classroom full of Russ Wallings. My God you would run out of the classroom screaming. Some do. Some teachers quite within the first 5 years, usually due to the serious behavior problems of some students (the apple doesn't fall far from the tree), lack of respect, and lack of classroom control.
As a teacher you have to wear many hats: teacher, surrogate parent, counselor, disciplinarian, custodian, etc. etc.
You might know it all and be the most gifted Phd. in your field, but if you don't have classroom control, the students will eat you alive, and then you have nothing. No teaching or learning will take place.
Like I said, teaching is the most rewarding and hardest job you will ever do.
PS --- the difference between good students and bad students is the difference in parental supervision and parental involvement, or lack there of.
Those parents who are involved in their childs' lives and teach them respect, morals, ethics, and teach them "the golden rule" make all the difference.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
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Feb 12, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
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kwit writes: please. tell me teachers make too much, or even enough money to my face and i will punch you.
Tell me you are not a teacher.
At a minimum, I expect teachers to at least use adequate punctuation and above average spelling in forum posts. Todd, I'm sorry, but here is a pink slip.
Cry all you want teachers, but the more more more attitude is slowly grinding to a halt here in California. The State is broke. Obviously there are problems with the system and funding, not just here, but across the Nation. That being said, between the benefit package, the curse of tenure, the time off, and the warm fuzzies you get for growing better humans, I'm just not feeling your pain. It appears I am not alone in this opinion out in the real world.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Feb 12, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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As previously mentioned, teachers $$ salaries in CA may be tops, but you try living on that in CA. If I didn't make good $$ (I am not a teacher), my family and I could no way in hell afford to live in Vacaville on my wife's salary. VACAVILLE aka middle of nowhere.
In addition, it is not just about how much you pay the teachers, lets not forget California is 47th (as of 2008) in spending per student. We are rapidly approaching the least amount spent per student yet we have the highest ESL student population, which as also noted above, requires additional resources in order to support.
http://www.rocklin.k12.ca.us/negotations/state_funding.pdf
As also mentioned above, PARENTS are the people who should be looking in the mirror when it comes to student test scores. My wife works her standard hours and then most often puts in another 3-4 hours at night from home. I often help her grade papers and tests in addition to volunteering at her school functions because they can't get any parents to come help. You know, stupid stuff like, Explore It! and Science Night. Her Parent Teacher Association (PTA) is comprised of almost all teachers. Why? Because none of the parents will participate.
Don't blame the teachers, blame lazy parents who couldn't give a crap about their kids education. Kids pick up their attitude and go to school and don;t even try to learn because they know there is no consequence for them.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 12, 2009 - 12:39pm PT
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I teach economics at a local community college, and taught commercial law and bankruptcy classes in law school since 1985. I once calculated that each course I taught cost me about $30,000.00 in opportunity cost. That is, if I spent the time I spent preparing, teaching and grading doing legal work at my normal rate of compensation, I would make $30,000 more. I obviously don't teach for the money. I teach because I love it, because I feel satisfaction from teaching students well, and because I get lots of props from my students and administrators.
That's great, but what about those who don't have a lucrative day job? I don't think you'd get worse teachers if you made the profession more lucrative. I think, if anything, you'd get more people who always wanted to teach, but had greater monetary needs (OK -- most of those may be just wants, but you know what I mean). I rather suspect that you'd end up with a pool of better teachers as a result.
I could add my two cents worth on measuring educational outcomes, and why teachers at my level get paid more than those at the K-12 level. Two cents is probably all my opinions are worth there, because everyone has an opinion on those issues, and I'm unlikely to change anyone's mind.
I hope, though, that we would seriously consider paying teachers a lot more, and worrying less about class sizes.
John
EDIT: Teaching is NOT the hardest job I do. Try representing borrowers in trouble.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Feb 12, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
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I dont know about teachers pay. After reading the article though, is $50 a day for Lunch for a HS boy too much?
Parents who beat on teachers as a whole are probably just too afraid to face their own failings as parents. And if you dont have kids or you are not a teacher, then complaining about kid educational problems is like LEB being an expert on climbing....
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
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Feb 12, 2009 - 01:01pm PT
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20+ years eh Mrtropy? Let's see, that will put me at 63 yrs. old before I start making bank! Damn, that's not good. But, I've been living on sub-$30K income for most my life, so it won't be too hard to make ends meet.
Like you, I'm doing it for the extra time to spend with the family. I'm already pretty attached to this 1 yr. old of mine, can't wait to spend summers in the mountains and show her the constellations and the ropes on the rock! Cheers.
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